Author Topic: The Evolution Of Freespace  (Read 4380 times)

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Offline Star-Epock

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Now what im about to lecture you on you all know, but you all seem to have forgotten these fundamentals in the rush with bigger better Capital ships.

Ive been reading some of the discussions on Caps, and especialy concerning the use and position of Frigates and Corvettes etc. There have also been many comparisons drawn with World War 2 equivalents.

Pre Fs1.
Think how battles were fought before the events depicted in FS1. Without shields Fighters could only be used in a supporting role with bombers, and more importantly used to attack cargo storage. Everyone has forgotten the importance of supply and re-supply. Just because Fs2 Abandoned some real war missions for the Glamerous test pilot/Squadleader role dosent mean thew ensigns, wernt stilll hiting enemy Storage depos, killing Cains and Belial turrets!
In FS1 you had to gang up on freighters and avoid cruisers. The "Puny" Vasudan Aten could rip an Apollo to pieces.
However with no heavy ship borne power bombers were the only vessel capbale of bringing a big ship down in a short space of time.

Cruisers are idealy suited to take out defencive turrets, and then cargo containers.

Destoyers cant operate for long without supply from drop in depots or Freighters.

Etc, you get the picture, and it all fits in rather well with a kind of Circle, and no one element is superior or inferior to the rest.

FS1 Post
Fighter bomber shields mean evry capital vessel is vulnerable to them. A single persistent fighter can kill a cruiser given time. And we all know what a wing of Ursas could do....

So the caps role now became secondary. It was the heyday of fighters and bombers and still is..

FS2.
Now caps are back, flack kills bombs, beams kill other caps etc. Maybe a bit more of a balanced playing field. The cruiser is dead (lets face it there useless to a point)

But?
Why is everyone still using the "The fighter bay has been disabled!" scenario????  Its not as if modern PCs cant handle a few more wings flying about. And dare I say it, what about Allied fighter waves.... ? Or is that reserved for the Shivans who deserve to die in droves??!?

The old constraints no longer apply.

SO why are we still running our Corrino Clone banks at full power and producing V clone missions???


Note:
Maybe my information is out of date, but I downloaded and played LOADS of missions over the weekend (I didnt go outside )
:devilidea
And there were so many clones I thought I was playing the same ones over and over again!

END OF RANT
I ♥ FS1

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Offline Fineus

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Interesting, inspiring and good for a bit of nostalgia as well. Congratulations!

I think the main reason behind the lack of waves of fighters/bombers is that (not only) do they tend to get killed pretty rapidly these days (hence all the wingmen jokes) but having constant waves jumping in on both sides can get kinda boring/repetitive after a point. FS's atmosphere was ideally suited to having hundreds of Shivan waves swamping the player, but if you do that in FS2 it just doesn't seem to work so well.

On another note cruisers still have a role of escort for larger ships or convoys, but this isn't made very apparent in FS2. I guess the ideal example was the combined effort of cruisers and fighters escorting the Bastion to its last mission, and as you saw that worked really very well. But your right, a wing of fighters could easily take a cruiser these days because the weapons are so much more advanced. Now if someone made fighter weaponry useless against cruisers...then we'd see something far more interesting!

 

Offline Stunaep

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The Evolution Of Freespace
plus, at the time FS2 was made, it already had some pretty impressive system requirements for the time, putting in more wings would have slowed down the comps utterly.
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The Evolution Of Freespace
If your wing has to attack another wing, no problem.  If your wing has to attack another wing supported by an Aeluos, problem - the role of cruisers.

Some missions with a lot of wings of fighters can be really dull.  Look at the first 15 or so missions of derelict, they were just "shoot the loki".
But some mission types would really benefit from more fighters.  Take "high noon", where the collosus and sath meet for the first time.  Feels a bit lonely with these two huge ships, yourself and 4 basilisks.  Seeing star wars on friday reminded me of some of the scene's attacking the Death star in the earlier films.  Those battles were filled with ships, hundreds of fighters duking it out, and dozens of large ships buzzing around the death star like flys in comparison.  Imagine that sort of amtosphere in attacking the sathanas.
And there's other missions later in Freespace, towards the end escorting the bastion and the convoys in the last few missions.  Wing after wing of bombers to chew threw, corvetes circling each other in the background, but since by that stage in the game you have kaysers and maxims, its great fun.
Freespace should be about attacking fighters and getting lots of kills (with a few bombing missions thrown in).  Destroyers hold 20 wings of fighters - launch them all.

pete

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Offline WMCoolmon

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by beatspete
If your wing has to attack another wing, no problem.  If your wing has to attack another wing supported by an Aeluos, problem - the role of cruisers.

Some missions with a lot of wings of fighters can be really dull.  Look at the first 15 or so missions of derelict, they were just "shoot the loki".
But some mission types would really benefit from more fighters.  Take "high noon", where the collosus and sath meet for the first time.  Feels a bit lonely with these two huge ships, yourself and 4 basilisks.  Seeing star wars on friday reminded me of some of the scene's attacking the Death star in the earlier films.  Those battles were filled with ships, hundreds of fighters duking it out, and dozens of large ships buzzing around the death star like flys in comparison.  Imagine that sort of amtosphere in attacking the sathanas.
And there's other missions later in Freespace, towards the end escorting the bastion and the convoys in the last few missions.  Wing after wing of bombers to chew threw, corvetes circling each other in the background, but since by that stage in the game you have kaysers and maxims, its great fun.
Freespace should be about attacking fighters and getting lots of kills (with a few bombing missions thrown in).  Destroyers hold 20 wings of fighters - launch them all.

pete

Warning! Warning! Warning!
-C

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
Of course, you also have to consider the downside to the whole thing.  There is this extremely annoying mission in Silent Threat where you have to take on a Typhon.  It launches infinite Horus interceptors.  That's just stupid.

Now, if you had your Destroyer launch waves of varied ship types, and its reserves actually became depleted after a while, that would be better.  It's also not quite as much of a strain on the system to have 20 wings (or whatever) launching from each side as you might think.  Keep in mind that not all the wings can be launched simultaneously; depending on how you use your artistic license, you could have a new wing pop out only every 20 seconds or something (I'm not sure what would actually be a good delay).

Another problem with this is that the player seems less significant.  Although he/she certainly isn't less significant (shooting down even a few enemies makes a huge difference), it doesn't appear that way.  This can be fun for a couple missions, but after a while, it would get tiring.
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Warning! Warning! Warning!


Obviously there's a risk of having something like that.  However, many of the problems cited in that article can be solved with skilled mission design, and having two Destroyers, a few Cruisers and the Destroyers' fighter and bomber complement duke it out is quite different than what the writer was talking about.

The main risk is that a newbie designer will create a big fight and assume it's good enough for release.

Problem: Too much strain on system resources.
Solution: Computers nowadays are much too powerful for FS2 anyway.  In addition, the source code is available so any problems with the total number of ships exceeding the max amount (or something similar) can be fixed.

Problem: Capital ship AI focuses on fighters too much.
Solution: Not with beams they don't.  Anyway, clever AI orders can fix this.

Problem: Capital ships don't inflict enough damage on eachother.
Solution: Beams.

Problem: Capital ships sit hovering in space because they weren't given AI orders.
Solution: Give them AI orders.

Problem: Capital ships ram eachother because of poor movement orders.
Solution: Make better movement orders.

Problem: Fighters will either be too sparse or too numerous.
Solution: Test and tweak the mission until this works out.  Although the number of fighters per destroyer is known, the rate at which they are issued forth is changeable.

Problem: Mission is too hard or too easy.
Solution: Test and tweak.

Problem: Too few events to make the mission interesting.
Solution: Put in more events.

Problem: Too few missiles to arm friendly fighters and bombers.
Solution: Put in more missiles.

Problem: Volition Inc. never created a Battle of Endor-style mission.
Solution: All the more reason to break the mold.

Problem: Space should be empty.
Solution: Says who?

Problem: Battle of Endor-style missions have never been good.
Solution: This doesn't mean they can't be done well.

Problem: Too many targets.
Solution: Test and tweak.

Problem: Player has too little influence.
Solution: This is a very real problem, but it can be overcome by having only one or two large battles in a campaign, and keeping the rest in an ordinary style.  It can be fun to be slightly less influencial every once in a while.  Ideally, the mission should be balanced so that if the player isn't there, the bad guys win by a little bit.  That way, the player's presence is necessary.

---EDIT---

Problem: Mission is too two-dimensional.
Solution: This is a mistake newbie mission designers make anyway.  It has very little to do with the Battle of Endor-style difficulties.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2002, 06:10:14 pm by 684 »
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 

Offline IceFire

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Let me tell you guys, a GOOD Battle of Endor is very hard to create.  BlackWater Operations last missions are fairly large battles, but we've split them up using Red-Alert because of a couple reasons:

1) Crashes
2) Lack of interest in the mission
- IceFire
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Offline Stryke 9

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Problem isn't too many capships or anything of the sort. Battle of Endor syndrome is caused by the simple fact (which never fails to annoy me when I play) that the capships are too damn easy to kill, and people do the only thing they can to remedy ease of killing- making lots of them. Seriously. For the most part, all but the biggest can inflict even less damage than a well-armed fighter (those damn little Avenger turrets), I can take down anything smaller than a destroyer, and some things bigger, in a minute or less, and there's really no challenge once you've learned to kill 'em. The closest thing to a really good capship mission, I think, is the usage of the Ravanna in the first mission you kill one in- you can't navigate to hide behind the engines to blast away, you've got to keep on the move before Shivan fighters or the Ravanna's beams pick you out, you need to ration out your weaponry, and until you've played the mission 50 times you can't really tell what's going on anyway. "Killing Ravana" was the height of FS for me, and the rest seemed really dissapointing. It was, in a word, intense, and that's what hitting a humongous capship with a bomber the size of a midsize car should be. There are several ways to solve this basic problem. I-War made the capships (patcoms, mostly) essentially glorified fighters, with roughly equal maneuverability and size, and just a few more and heavier guns. Many games simply make the capital ships extremely tough, so much so that there's no way a single pilot could really destroy the whole thing alone, and cover them with heavy guns to keep it interesting and dangerous. FreeSpace is ideal with this second alternative- you should try it sometime.

At any other time, that woulda been a p1mp.

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Let me tell you guys, a GOOD Battle of Endor is very hard to create.


True.  I doubt a really good Battle of Endor-style mission is within the reach of even a good mission creator.  Although I've come off like I'm trying to defend Battle of Ender-style missions, I'm actually trying to defend Destroyer fights where the Destroyer actually launches its fighters.

Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
"Killing Ravana" was the height of FS for me


That mission was a very good one.  The nebula added to it.  There really was no way to figure out what was going on, so your two focuses are staying alive and firing Cyclops missiles into the Ravana.

The first time the Ravana appeared in FS2 was so scary, too; I thought it was another Lucifer at the time.  I was just doing the mission and all of a sudden this HUGE thing comes out of subspace.  I have no clue what it is, because I can't even see it because of the nebula.

I love the way that the nebula effect makes silhouettes of capital ships in the fog.  You can see this big blob for a long time before you're close enough to target it, and it's kind of scary because it could be almost anything.
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Many games simply make the capital ships extremely tough, so much so that there's no way a single pilot could really destroy the whole thing alone, and cover them with heavy guns to keep it interesting and dangerous. FreeSpace is ideal with this second alternative- you should try it sometime.


I'm not sure quite what you mean by this.  Do you mean that capital ships should be given heavier weaponry?

I doubt taking out a capital ship would be easy if they actually launched their full fighter complement instead of keeping it in reserve (or whereever they put it).
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 

Offline Stryke 9

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Yeah, but it gets boring killing fighter after fighter, anyway.

Yeah. I'm all for more powerful guns, heavier armor, smarter missiles, the works. Make things interesting, and should put you in fair with your wingmen.:D

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Yeah, but it gets boring killing fighter after fighter, anyway.


True; not every mission could have a couple of Destroyers duking it out.  However, those missions that did feature that kind of matchup would seem more important than they seem now.  Right now, Destroyer match-ups seem to be more like fighting alongside big cruisers than anything else.

Quote
Yeah. I'm all for more powerful guns, heavier armor, smarter missiles, the works. Make things interesting, and should put you in fair with your wingmen.:D


Yes, but it can't get too hard, because the player should at least have a chance against a capship (I mean of living to tell the tale, not of killing it).
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 

Offline IceFire

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
True. I doubt a really good Battle of Endor-style mission is within the reach of even a good mission creator. Although I've come off like I'm trying to defend Battle of Ender-style missions, I'm actually trying to defend Destroyer fights where the Destroyer actually launches its fighters.

A GOOD battle of endor has stumped even Kellan and I largely regard him to be one of the best if not the best mission designer in this community.  It has nothing to do with him working with me on BWO except for the fact that I get to see his genius first hand :)

A large mission is VERY hard to make fun.  And then when you really try and go for it, FreeSpace 2 puts up a roadblock.  I hope to overcome that a bit when Source stuff gets underway.
- IceFire
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The Evolution Of Freespace
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
I hope to overcome that a bit when Source stuff gets underway.


Good luck!:nod::yes:
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 

Offline CP5670

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The Evolution Of Freespace
What exactly constitutes a BOE mission? I might have one or two that can be classified as that, but I tend to use few capital ships at a time and instead put in many enemy fighters (4 or 5 wings simultaneously). ;)

 

Offline Fineus

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Well a BOE mission is simple to create. Insert massive numbers of ships on both sides. Beam free all on the capital ships and then let it fly. But to make a good mission is another story all together.

The real BOE was so successful because not only did it follow a few brave charachters through the mission but it had set objectives that had been hyped throughout the film. This kinda thing you simply can't do in a computer game (unless it's a campaign) so it gets harder. Also limitations on the game engine means the whole thing lacks detail and gets boring as a result.

  

Offline Star-Epock

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The Evolution Of Freespace
I disagree totaly in regards to the BOE thing.

If the player is central to the mission there are bound to be problems.

However thrre are more subtle ways to use player interaction without having them be responcible for blasting everything in sight.
I cant remember the name but I think its the third misssion from the end of FS2, theres a GVCv defending a convoy fleeing capella. Its at about 30% hull and there is a badly damaged Shivan Corvette atacking it.  If you kill the corvette too quickly a wing of Seraphim jump in and nuke it. There are also Nahemas trying to attack..

The thing is, I repalyed it loads of times trying to preserve the corvette. Interestingly while it was alive EVERY shivan ship attcked it, and not the convoy, that made the rest of the mission easyer. I never preserved it till the jump node (Attrition from Manticores killed it) but with a few quick wing orders and splitting roles etc it was savable with enough skill.

In a BOE style mission say, why cant the player have a special mission, while the battle rages on around him? That way its less of a free-for-all     All-you-can-kill mission. I think thats where secondary objectives can make all the difference, where fullfiling a secondary and attacking a beam on a ship thats not the primery target, but as a knock on effect saves an allied one from destruction, only to make the primary harder to kill (i.e. has time to launch more fighters.)is the way to do it! :yes:
maybe thats not the best example but you get my drift...
Also most of the Caps die because missions are set up with them having a straight on concentrated fire power duel. All shivan vessels have better foward fire while allied ones a a more balanced all round  ability and fire arcs.

Alot of these cap duels are done in a very 2D way.A mix of mismatched ships however, with changing ai orders "when hull less than (blah) send ai orders to vessles 1, 2 ,3 etc to change targets." so they are more dunamic and dont simply keep circling each other making the outcome a foregone conclusion.
But that also is where fighter wings can make the difference, a wing of maxim armed ships set to disarm can tip the balance in  such straight engagements.

But seriously. Setting up your caps to re-aquire a beam cannon target can make things far more interesting. Especially if you introduce the vessel it choses as a code varyable. Then the mission can really go any way, and things, Get un-predictable. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing.. it depends on what type of mission your making.  And would make a story driven campaign perhaps overly difficult.


;7
I ♥ FS1

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The Evolution Of Freespace
Something I've always found interesting is the way a Sobek and a Moloch will duke it out. Insert a Moloch (it could probably be anything with dorsal beams) and a Sobek in an empty FRED mission, and turn on beams. In a few minutes, they should both begin orbiting around a central point. It's a good example of the way that just the basic design of the ships makes the action more dynamic.
Carpé Nocturne

 
The Evolution Of Freespace
I agree, anyone can make a BOE mission, but making a good one is near impossible.
One of the main problems in launching fighters in a BOE is whether to fly bomber or fighter .  Fighters attack fighters: they don't have enough fire power to take down anything bigger than a cruiser, but yet they get shot at by the biggest juggernauts, so its a bit of a one way battle.  Bombers have the power to take on cap ships, and can make a huge impact on a battle, if they don't get shot down by fighters first.  What needs to exists is a balance between interacting with the big ships, and involving yourself in the fighter mawls going on.
To achieve this, your only option is to take a helios armed myrmadon, and then you just have a ship which doesnt have enough capacity to be a good bomber, or enough anti fighter missles to be a good fighter.
The only real sollution to the problem is have specific anti cap ship goals for fighters - ie destroy the reactor subsystem and the whole destroy blows up.  And it needs to be a skillful goal too: refering back to the origional BOE of the star wars film, it wasnt just bomb the death star to its death, you had to get your missiles down the little hole - it gives the fighters a point.

However, some purly bomber missions are very effective: Killing ravana as Notdefault said, and 'the kings gambit' where you are part of a blockade.  This mission was intresting since you had to destroy the ships before they warped out, but the average BOE has no such motive.

In conclusion:  Until someone can make a good BOE, dont.  Stick to bombing nothing bigger than a destoryer.

pete

"Your cynicism appauls me Collosus - I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for pants !"

"Go to red alert!"
"Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb"