[Turambar]

Huh, i never considered that Israel might be a problem that could potentially solve itself.  The struggle if it goes secular or muslim won't be pleasant though

[LordPomposity]

And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF.

Simply out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this policy?

[Sandwich]

And the only "rights" that the Arab citizens of Israel don't have is the civic duty to serve in the IDF.

Simply out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this policy?

I can't say for sure, as I wasn't the one who put the policy in place. The Wikipedia gives a good background as to why the Israel Arabs have citizenship to begin with:

Citizenship by residence was intended for non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, etc.) who were considered to be associated with Palestine during the period immediately prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Such denizens who were still within the territorial confines of Israel after the war were granted full Israeli citizenship.

(So much for the "Israel kicked us out of our homes" claim tossed around so often...)

...and earlier in the same article:

Military service is legally mandatory for virtually all of Israel's citizens and residents although various exemptions can be granted. Certain ethnic groups, such as Arab Israelis, have received a blanket exemption

So with that in mind, we know that just because an Israeli Arab has their citizenship, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are "for" the State of Israel - it merely means that they (or their parents or grandparents) elected to remain in their homes after Israel won the 1948 war. Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.

Heck, one could even look at it from the point of view that the Jews in Israel are second-class citizens, where they have the additional obligation to spend 2-3 years in military service, like it or not... but let's not go there.

[karajorma]

Citizenship by residence was intended for non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, etc.) who were considered to be associated with Palestine during the period immediately prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Such denizens who were still within the territorial confines of Israel after the war were granted full Israeli citizenship.

(So much for the "Israel kicked us out of our homes" claim tossed around so often...)

Oh you must be ****ing kidding me. Surely everyone can see the flaw in that logic. If anyone left in Israel became a citizen it doesn't follow that no one was kicked out of their homes because that doesn't account for anyone kicked out BEFORE that declaration.

Here, read this instead.

[Grizzly]

Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.

Aren't there also quite a few jews which are opposed to the state of Isreal due to religious reasons?

[Nemesis6]

Generally, one wants soldiers in an army who are loyal to the country they would be defending (for obvious reasons), so granting the Israel Arabs a blanket exemption from military service handles the issue nicely.

Aren't there also quite a few jews which are opposed to the state of Isreal due to religious reasons?

Yeah. It's mostly nutjobs like the Naturei Karta.

[Sandwich]

Oh you must be ****ing kidding me. Surely everyone can see the flaw in that logic. If anyone left in Israel became a citizen it doesn't follow that no one was kicked out of their homes because that doesn't account for anyone kicked out BEFORE that declaration.

So instead you prefer to believe that the process was, in essence:

Jew: "Git outta here you dirty Arabs b'fore we kill you!"
Arab 1: "We're leaving, we're leaving!"
Arab 2: "No way you Zionist pig, this is our home and we're staying put!"
Jew: "Ok Arab 2, here, take full citizenship then."

Obviously a very colorful representation, but you get the point.

Here, read this instead.

In all honesty, I don't know for a fact what happened. I wasn't there. That article (and I only skimmed it - at work right now) just tells me that the debate is far larger than I was aware of... I should've guessed, though. In any case, I tend to believe the side that doesn't have a track record of rewriting history in schools (eg. teaching that the Holocaust never happened, etc) when there are conflicting claims about what did or didn't happen.

Also, I'd like to point out that the region was a warzone, and wars suck. Regardless of whether the Arabs were getting actively kicked out or not, I can't blame them in the slightest for not wanting to live in what had become the frontlines. Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

[karajorma]

So instead you prefer to believe that the process was, in essence:

Jew: "Git outta here you dirty Arabs b'fore we kill you!"
Arab 1: "We're leaving, we're leaving!"
Arab 2: "No way you Zionist pig, this is our home and we're staying put!"
Jew: "Ok Arab 2, here, take full citizenship then."

Obviously a very colorful representation, but you get the point.

Has it occurred to you that there might have been more than one Jew in that conversation? And that the Jews responsible for the intimidation were not the same ones who granted citizenship? However by ignoring the excesses of their countrymen and refusing to grant restitution for them, they are party to their crimes.

my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

How many refugees did Israel accept from Syria in the last few weeks? How many from Lebanon during all the wars there? How many from the West Bank or Gaza despite the fact that some people would rather not live there? I doubt the number is as high as the 750,000 displaced during the War of Independence.

It's very few countries who actually accept refugees on that sort of scale. They're not citizens of their country, they're Israelis by birth if not by citizenship. The fact that they're acting like scum towards those refugees doesn't mean Israel gets a pass on their treatment of them. ESPECIALLY if you're going to claim that Israel is an enlightened democracy that is showing the same countries how to behave.

[Janos]

Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

This is repulsive.

"Sure, we might have kicked the Palestinians out, but honestly it's the Egypt's fault so they should take them!"

[Kosh]

I've been trying to stay out of this but I just can't help it.

Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

So you're blaming Jordan, Syria and Egypt for Israel effectively creating its own version of the South African Homelands?

[Sandwich]

So you're blaming Jordan, Syria and Egypt for Israel effectively creating its own version of the South African Homelands?

Don't be a mindless sheep who repeats the party line just because everyone else is doing so - or at least make sure what you're repeating makes sense.

I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.

Try harder.

[Kosh]

Nice Ad Hom. What you're essentially saying is that Israel didn't really forcibly expel people from their homes and not allow them to return, it just sort of happened on its own, is that an accurate interpretation of what you're trying to say?

[Janos]

I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.
Try harder.

This is just... Whelp. Are you seriously claiming this? Are you seriously stating that Israel just had to expel the Palestinians (who were living there) because someone else attacked Israel?

This is, from both logical and ethical point of view, completely bizarre and insane.
1. How does S/J/E attack logically lead to expulsion of Palestinians
2. How does an attack absolve Israel of actions it itself decided to take

this boggles the mind

[Janos]

Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

There are almost 2 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan and and 470 000 in Syria.

(BTW, Palestinians are Palestinians, even if they are Arabs.)

[Turambar]

I'm blaming said nations for attacking Israel in a 3-front war the moment she was established by the international community as a recognized nation. The 1948 war is what led to the existence of the Arab refugees, not the formation of the state of Israel.
Try harder.

This is just... Whelp. Are you seriously claiming this? Are you seriously stating that Israel just had to expel the Palestinians (who were living there) because someone else attacked Israel?

This is, from both logical and ethical point of view, completely bizarre and insane.
1. How does S/J/E attack logically lead to expulsion of Palestinians
2. How does an attack absolve Israel of actions it itself decided to take

this boggles the mind

if Israel was justified, and everything made sense, they wouldnt need AIPAC to buy all of the US's politicians in order to use our UN security council vote to veto every UN resolution against them.

[karajorma]

Don't be a mindless sheep who repeats the party line just because everyone else is doing so - or at least make sure what you're repeating makes sense.

Maybe you should take that advice for yourself as the rest of your comment was a complete logic fail.

IF you are correct and the attack by the other nations caused those refugees then they ARE Israelis who left in order to avoid being killed when foreign countries invaded their homeland. To deny them the right to return is not only immoral but also retarded.

[Mika]

Maybe you should take that advice for yourself as the rest of your comment was a complete logic fail.

IF you are correct and the attack by the other nations caused those refugees then they ARE Israelis who left in order to avoid being killed when foreign countries invaded their homeland. To deny them the right to return is not only immoral but also retarded.

Not that I would be completely happy with Israel's actions, but I don't believe the refugees were either completely innocent. War time laws are crooked when thinking from the perspective of functioning democracy, but if there was a reason to suspect them collaborating with the enemy, they could as well have been shot. And some probably were. Digging through this is useless, and will not help anything on any direction.

Personally I'm of the opinion that founding the country on its present location was asking for trouble, but then again, the UN (a democratic system in itself, or at least should be) recognized it and then it has a right to exist. Whether the region becomes more peaceful when US help there is diminishing is another question.

I suppose the main argument here is that Israel says that if it ratified all the UN resolutions, it would effectively mean the disappearance of the nation. This is the thing that I consider that should be debated. Their stance regarding to this is actually grounded by the earlier experiences. And the bigger question is, what could be done?

[Sandwich]

Dragging this back to present-day, my question is why haven't any of the other 21 or so Arab nations in the region accepted the Arab refugees? Jordan, Syria, Egypt - they're 3 of the 4 nations we share borders with, they're the nations that, 63 years ago, started the 1948 war (and lost it), but they refused to accept any Arab refugees that resulted from that. Does that make any sense?

There are almost 2 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan and and 470 000 in Syria.

You know what? According to the Wikipedia, you're right. I did not know that - my bad.

It's interesting, however, that refugees that were granted Jordanian citizenship have had their citizenship revoked to prevent them from becoming permanent residents of Jordan. How thoughtful.

Here's something else from the Wikipedia article on Palestinian refugees:

According to writer and researcher Mudar Zahran, a Jordanian of Palestinian heritage, the media chose to deliberately ignore the conditions of the Palestinians living in Lebanese refugee camps, and that the "tendency to blame Israel for everything" has provided Arab leaders an excuse to deliberately ignore the human rights of the Palestinian in their countries.

Also, there's still the whole thing with them wanting to kill all the Jews, push us into the sea, etc etc... not exactly meeting the whole "live in peace with neighbors" clause of refugee return.

As for the debate on the events surrounding the formation of said refugees - I give up. I'd rather not waste my time debating with people who refuse to look at all the historical events that happened 50-100 years ago that have direct impact on the situation's legal and moral issues as they are today. Have fun blaming Israel for everything under the sun - we're used to it.

In case you actually do want to learn some about the history of things, here's some pointers:

- Look into the legality of Israel's formation; the League of Nations and UN declarations, etc. The video I posted earlier is a great place to start, but don't just take what it says blindly - research the things it claims for yourself.
- Look into the wars that Israel has fought since 1948: who started them and why, who won, the lines that were drawn, etc.

If you find anything interesting, let me know.

[NGTM-1R]

Ignores the points made by others. Complete driveby posting out of touch with the topic. Has it really come to that, Sandwhich?

[karajorma]

As for the debate on the events surrounding the formation of said refugees - I give up. I'd rather not waste my time debating with people who refuse to look at all the historical events that happened 50-100 years ago that have direct impact on the situation's legal and moral issues as they are today. Have fun blaming Israel for everything under the sun - we're used to it.

You've completely failed to make any logical argument over those events.

You've ignored anything anyone has posted that doesn't fit your argument, an argument which let's not forget is one YOU started. Everyone was talking about modern Israel until you waded in with posts about 1948 which were completely ignorant about the cause of the problem.