Author Topic: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)  (Read 5571 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Why don't you go and tell the Chinese that their Great Wall was ugly and crap while your'e at it?

Let's compare.

One is oversized and hideous, the other is smaller, and flows naturally with its environment. I find the Great Wall quite acceptable.

Next time you might want to take a screne of a finished section, and not hunt for the ugliest possible place and angle.





« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:07:55 pm by TrashMan »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
The wall is indeed a big bother, me and iaz were traveling FAR for privacy and stuff to not build around where it was already built (somewhere around the x:4000) mark and then we found this huuuuge stupid wall in the way, we didn't break through cuz that would have been griefing, we had to walk a lot to find a way around, at least make it on pilars instead of a gigantic WALL that doesn't let things pass.

x4000????

No way that's my wall. But I am making multipel gates in the wall (already made 4) so peoeel can pass easily. You're free to dig a passage trough it btw, I don't mind.
I can easilly turn it into a proper gate during my inspection. The construction method sometimes leaves jutting edges and blocks stickign out, due to weird lava flow, so I have to fix those.
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Offline achtung

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Why don't you go and tell the Chinese that their Great Wall was ugly and crap while your'e at it?

Let's compare.

One is oversized and hideous, the other is smaller, and flows naturally with its environment. I find the Great Wall quite acceptable.

Next time you might want to take a screne of a finished section, and not hunt for the ugliest possible place and angle.







I really don't feel those photos lend much credence to your argument. Those are huge, useless, and not that pretty.
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Offline pecenipicek

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Well, you do have to draw the line between appearance and functionality at some point. The entire way the game works is using a volumetric system over a vast area. For enough detail to satisfy the visual junkies, you'd need a game that would not run on any computer currently available, Java or not.

I hate to drag up Dwarf Fortress again, but I think it's worth a mention, because it's an example of how the richness of the gaming experience is not neccesarily dependent on the richness of the visual experience. It's, in part, down to the player as to how enjoyable that experience is, there's nothing wrong with a visual tour-de-force but there's always a trade off between aesthetics and diversity.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Why don't you go and tell the Chinese that their Great Wall was ugly and crap while your'e at it?

Let's compare.

One is oversized and hideous, the other is smaller, and flows naturally with its environment. I find the Great Wall quite acceptable.

Next time you might want to take a screne of a finished section, and not hunt for the ugliest possible place and angle.







I really don't feel those photos lend much credence to your argument. Those are huge, useless, and not that pretty.

Yeah well, I consider everything you buuilt an affront to existance...Now what?


And b.t.w. - there are people who have been on teh server for days and never saw my wall or kingodm. The Server is BIG. Unless you're within 2 chunks of the wall, you can't even see it. It can't even be seen from your tower/hotel, so I doubt it affects it's property value.

And I haven't actually added any new wall sections in weeks. Been working on the village.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 02:45:23 am by TrashMan »
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Offline rev_posix

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Ok everyone, enough with the personal attacks.

Swantz, you think the wall is ugly fine.  That's your opinion and you have a right to it.

TrashMan, you, ahem, strongly disagree.  That's your opinion and have a right to it.

However, the name calling and such other similar actions need to stop right here and now.  This is just a game people, it's not a religion or politics.

I don't care who started it, who is more at fault, or who is guilty of it.  What I care about is keeping the thread civil in their discussion and comments.

So consider this a friendly warning.  Any more "questionable" posts will result in warnings being handed out and can lead to more if needed.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Now back to your scheduled mining and creeper dodging.  :)
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Offline qazwsx

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
And b.t.w. - there are people who have been on teh server for days and never saw my wall or kingodm. The Server is BIG. Unless you're within 2 chunks of the wall, you can't even see it. It can't even be seen from your tower/hotel, so I doubt it affects it's property value.

Two chunks is 32m, at max 48m away if you don't count the one you're in.
A quick look at the wiki shows that more than two chunks away is easily visible. http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/4/4d/Chunk_borders_visible_in_snow.JPG
I believe our server is configured to distribute chunks to clients in a radius of 8 chunks around the player, but I haven't got server.properties to hand.

Now, in an effort to clear this up, I quote the server rules directly from the website, complete with spelling and grammar issues:
Quote
No willfull damages of other's creations.
No messing about with fire near wooden structures, even your own, if they are near trees or other peoples's stuff.
If an area is themed, try and stick with it. A brick house looks out of place between wooden houses.
Clean up after yourself,ifyou are in a populated area, don't leave random blocks lying about
No potentially offensive building.
After one warning, the offending structure will be destroyed after a few days
Be carefull with TNT.
We have been extremely lax with enforcing these rules, mainly because we have had no need to really use them. One of the rules I believe trash (and possibly others, but the wall is the issue at hand here) is the "area theme" rule. Now, the houses and buildings of trashmania have a unifying theme, which is fantastic, and I will say that the built up area does look quite good. However, the wall has been expanded into areas on the server in which other buildings were constructed first. For example, the westernmost section near sandwich's place. I believe most, if not all of us would consider Trash's wall and sandwich's cavern to be of differing themes. Another issue I have with the wall is the assimilation of BlueFlames' base. Although BlueFlames has not been on in a while, this does not give you the right to surround his base and claim the land as part of trashmania.
Whether the wall is attractive or not is probably the least of my concerns given the fact that you have intentionally encapsulated another member's land with to the best of my knowledge no permission to do so.
If Blueflames is fine with it, sure go ahead, but I don't believe that this level of expansion is nessacary.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 03:57:13 am by qazwsx »
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Offline achtung

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Why don't you go and tell the Chinese that their Great Wall was ugly and crap while your'e at it?

Let's compare.

One is oversized and hideous, the other is smaller, and flows naturally with its environment. I find the Great Wall quite acceptable.

Next time you might want to take a screne of a finished section, and not hunt for the ugliest possible place and angle.







I really don't feel those photos lend much credence to your argument. Those are huge, useless, and not that pretty.

Yeah well, I consider everything you buuilt an affront to existance...Now what?


And b.t.w. - there are people who have been on teh server for days and never saw my wall or kingodm. The Server is BIG. Unless you're within 2 chunks of the wall, you can't even see it. It can't even be seen from your tower/hotel, so I doubt it affects it's property value.

And I haven't actually added any new wall sections in weeks. Been working on the village.

Yes, I've let it move into the realm of opinion.

I'll just have leave it at this:

For the record, I think your wall should only be expanded into unpopulated regions on the server. You should also need to ask permission of everyone you would be putting behind it, before they are put behind it. I have no desire to be behind your wall, as I said when you tried to swallow up town.

I feel that sounds fair enough.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
And b.t.w. - there are people who have been on teh server for days and never saw my wall or kingodm. The Server is BIG. Unless you're within 2 chunks of the wall, you can't even see it. It can't even be seen from your tower/hotel, so I doubt it affects it's property value.

Two chunks is 32m, at max 48m away if you don't count the one you're in.
A quick look at the wiki shows that more than two chunks away is easily visible. http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/4/4d/Chunk_borders_visible_in_snow.JPG
I believe our server is configured to distribute chunks to clients in a radius of 8 chunks around the player, but I haven't got server.properties to hand.

My bad. Chunk is not the proper word..block? Nah.
When areas load, I see them loading in big blocks (roughly 100x100 blocks) - and I refer to those as chunks.
I saw those big one get filled with smaller ones, but never identified those as chunks... :o




Quote
We have been extremely lax with enforcing these rules, mainly because we have had no need to really use them. One of the rules I believe trash (and possibly others, but the wall is the issue at hand here) is the "area theme" rule. Now, the houses and buildings of trashmania have a unifying theme, which is fantastic, and I will say that the built up area does look quite good. However, the wall has been expanded into areas on the server in which other buildings were constructed first. For example, the westernmost section near sandwich's place. I believe most, if not all of us would consider Trash's wall and sandwich's cavern to be of differing themes.

What's the distance that has to be mantained between "themes"? My wall is just barely visible from sandwiches house IIRC. Asking for clarification here.


Quote
Another issue I have with the wall is the assimilation of BlueFlames' base. Although BlueFlames has not been on in a while, this does not give you the right to surround his base and claim the land as part of trashmania.

The claim is a in-joke between me and BF. I'm not really claiming anything, just being in-character.
Now, from inside the domes one even can't see the wall, so it's not a view problem.

If it's a area taken problem, then teachnicly the railways have the same problem, as they too traverese trough an area where someone may not want them (I know I hated BF's railway expansion that passes right next to my castle, but one learns to live with it. I actually ended up making a train station inside my castle), altough they are and less visible...usually. But they are still there.


Quote
Whether the wall is attractive or not is probably the least of my concerns given the fact that you have intentionally encapsulated another member's land with to the best of my knowledge no permission to do so.
If Blueflames is fine with it, sure go ahead, but I don't believe that this level of expansion is nessacary.

I actually have talked wiht BF about encircling his domes with a wall, altough it was all jokes and giggles. I never thought he'd mind.
Irony is, if I pushed my wall away from the lake, then the wall would have to be even bigger, hence even more expanding..Guess that would make me look even worse.
Normally I'm not opposed to tearing stuff of changing it if it bothers someone, but I put so much time into the thing that it does bother me :P


I can ssure you that the wall is not going to be expanding anyomore, in any direction. In fact, It might get smaller, as I may have to tear down some sections to appease the angry crowds.

Ahh..the life of the Emprah can be harsh. Where is the =I= when one needs it?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 07:54:42 am by TrashMan »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
For the record, I think your wall should only be expanded into unpopulated regions on the server. You should also need to ask permission of everyone you would be putting behind it, before they are put behind it. I have no desire to be behind your wall, as I said when you tried to swallow up town.

I feel that sounds fair enough.

Fair enough.

But just a slight correction - I never tried to swallow the town with the wall. Encapsulating it would be..too demanding. I traced a dirt line to the nearest hill to give the wall an proper end, but frankly not even I was happy with how it would pan out.
Thankfully qaz made a small hill for me to end it on, and it worked out for the better. Now there's gonna be a train station there.

If you really want to wall gone, I have TNT so it can be taken care of quickly. However, I really hope it won't come to that.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 07:56:15 am by TrashMan »
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Offline pecenipicek

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
just for the record, a "chunk" in minecraft terms is a "block" of 16x16x128 smaller blocks you see ingame. i think that by default the server is giving out the single chunk you are in at the moment and <number defined in the server.properties> chunks around it. so, i think that if there's a straight line of about 48-64 meters, you should be outside visible range. this however, i cannot confirm nor give any more data on. just my estimate.
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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Another issue I have with the wall is the assimilation of BlueFlames' base. Although BlueFlames has not been on in a while, this does not give you the right to surround his base and claim the land as part of trashmania.

The claim is a in-joke between me and BF. I'm not really claiming anything, just being in-character.
Now, from inside the domes one even can't see the wall, so it's not a view problem.

Quote
Whether the wall is attractive or not is probably the least of my concerns given the fact that you have intentionally encapsulated another member's land with to the best of my knowledge no permission to do so.
If Blueflames is fine with it, sure go ahead, but I don't believe that this level of expansion is nessacary.

I actually have talked wiht BF about encircling his domes with a wall, altough it was all jokes and giggles. I never thought he'd mind.
Irony is, if I pushed my wall away from the lake, then the wall would have to be even bigger, hence even more expanding..Guess that would make me look even worse.
Normally I'm not opposed to tearing stuff of changing it if it bothers someone, but I put so much time into the thing that it does bother me :P

I can ssure you that the wall is not going to be expanding anyomore, in any direction. In fact, It might get smaller, as I may have to tear down some sections to appease the angry crowds.

[/lurk]

Since I've been brought up, I should probably enter the dialogue.

A)  Yes, your wall is visible from the domes.  After all this internet-drama about it started, I decided to pop onto the server to see it first hand.  I expected I'd have to do a bit of traveling.  I didn't.  It's visible from all of the domes, in fact, in both the northern and southern lakes.

B)  I don't recall any out-of-character discussion between us about a wall, especially not one this enormous, encompassing those lakes.  The only in-character discussion we had involved me objecting to your expansionism.  I'm not really sure how this was interpreted as, "BF won't mind!"

When I joined the server, I deliberately looked for an out-of-the-way location in which to work.  I did so, first and foremost, because I did not want to interfere with other peoples' constructions.  I was actually quite mortified, when I discovered DarkRevenantX's mountain home nearby, because I thought I was far enough out-of-the-way to avoid any danger of stepping on anybody's toes.  Fortunately, our build efforts were isolated enough to avoid any intersection, and the southern town never expanded in my direction, probably due to the rough terrain between there and the lakes.

The other reason I built so far afield (and sought to minimize my own above-ground footprint for the longest time) is because Minecraft generates some pretty beautiful vistas.  Say what you will about the 16x16 textures on all of the blocks, seeing the sun rise over the distant mountains and set behind a forest is a pretty marvelous sight.  Now, I don't get to see that, on account of a flat-gray wall towering over the largest terrain elements and surrounding me on three sides.

If you'll take some constructive criticism, Trashman, the trouble with the wall's design is primarily its height.  It's out of proportion with everything in its environment.  You compare it to The Great Wall of China.  The Great Wall of China flows with the environment, rolling over the hills, almost like a stream of stone.  By contrast, your wall towers over and lances through the hills and mountains in its path.  It's apparent that to you, the terrain was an obstacle to be overcome, rather than an aesthetic consideration.  If your wall was a quarter of its current height and rolled with the hills (instead of skewering them), it would look a lot better and might aleviate most of the objections you've been receiving about its presence.

Unrelated note to Qaz and/or RHX:  Lightning strikes pass through transparent blocks, like water and glass.  This has resulted in a lot of the woodwork (floors and furniture) inside my underwater, glass domes to get toasted.  Buildings with large skylights may also be vulnerable.  I have ample resources with which to make repairs, when I make a proper return to the server, but in the same vein as Creeper explosions, you might want to look into disabling lightning strikes/thunderstorms.

Further unrelated note to Qaz and/or RHX:  1.8 will see a significant change to the way chunks are generated, on par with the Halloween Update from last year.  Perhaps a fresh start on a new world will be in order, after the update?  In addition to giving us a world free of a pre-1.8-post-1.8 border, it would also serve to hit the reset button on the territorialism and politics that has been developing over the summer.  Just a thought.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Welecome Back BF. You've been gone a long time. Heard that you ran into some big problems. Everything OK?




Since I've been brought up, I should probably enter the dialogue.

A)  Yes, your wall is visible from the domes.  After all this internet-drama about it started, I decided to pop onto the server to see it first hand.  I expected I'd have to do a bit of traveling.  I didn't.  It's visible from all of the domes, in fact, in both the northern and southern lakes.

I mean from inside the domes. The last time I was in them, I couldn't see anything outside, but a bluish water shimmer. Transparency or something.



Quote
B)  I don't recall any out-of-character discussion between us about a wall, especially not one this enormous, encompassing those lakes.  The only in-character discussion we had involved me objecting to your expansionism.  I'm not really sure how this was interpreted as, "BF won't mind!"

As I said, it was all joking. Didn't think you mind because it wasn't on over your buildings, just close. Of course that depends on what one consideres close... Seems ot be "if I can see it, it's close".
Oh about that patch of dirt and small pillar that goes over the lake - I'm destroying that. That is a leftover of me trying an alternate wall path.



Quote
When I joined the server, I deliberately looked for an out-of-the-way location in which to work.  I did so, first and foremost, because I did not want to interfere with other peoples' constructions.  I was actually quite mortified, when I discovered DarkRevenantX's mountain home nearby, because I thought I was far enough out-of-the-way to avoid any danger of stepping on anybody's toes.  Fortunately, our build efforts were isolated enough to avoid any intersection, and the southern town never expanded in my direction, probably due to the rough terrain between there and the lakes.

That's the same reason I moved away to start my tower/kingdom. I keep running into buildings that I never knew where that close.
Evidently I didn't move far enough.



Quote
The other reason I built so far afield (and sought to minimize my own above-ground footprint for the longest time) is because Minecraft generates some pretty beautiful vistas.  Say what you will about the 16x16 textures on all of the blocks, seeing the sun rise over the distant mountains and set behind a forest is a pretty marvelous sight.  Now, I don't get to see that, on account of a flat-gray wall towering over the largest terrain elements and surrounding me on three sides.

2 sides actually....1 side for your northern dome, since all other walls are outside of rendering range.




Quote
If you'll take some constructive criticism, Trashman, the trouble with the wall's design is primarily its height.  It's out of proportion with everything in its environment.  You compare it to The Great Wall of China.  The Great Wall of China flows with the environment, rolling over the hills, almost like a stream of stone.  By contrast, your wall towers over and lances through the hills and mountains in its path.  It's apparent that to you, the terrain was an obstacle to be overcome, rather than an aesthetic consideration.  If your wall was a quarter of its current height and rolled with the hills (instead of skewering them), it would look a lot better and might aleviate most of the objections you've been receiving about its presence.

Actually the wall height had 2 reasons:
1. It's impressive and grand in scale.. and I make a good look ut point
2. Making it follow the terrain would mena i'd had to use differetn construction methods..and in minecraft it coudln't really flow with the land. It would also make constructing hte railway on top more difficult.

So it was a combination of practical and imposing. After all, I was playing the Pim-God-Emperor role....and I got caught into it a bit too much. The megalomania of the wall is taxing even for me....
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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Welecome Back BF. You've been gone a long time. Heard that you ran into some big problems. Everything OK?

Chalk it up to a dying mouse and first-hand experience with the current job market.  Minecraft is challenging to the point of frustration with an only semi-functional left mouse button.

A)  Yes, your wall is visible from the domes.  After all this internet-drama about it started, I decided to pop onto the server to see it first hand.  I expected I'd have to do a bit of traveling.  I didn't.  It's visible from all of the domes, in fact, in both the northern and southern lakes.

I mean from inside the domes. The last time I was in them, I couldn't see anything outside, but a bluish water shimmer. Transparency or something.

To clarify, I never left the interior of the domes.  It's plainly visible from inside.

Actually the wall height had 2 reasons:
1. It's impressive and grand in scale.. and I make a good look ut point
2. Making it follow the terrain would mena i'd had to use differetn construction methods..and in minecraft it coudln't really flow with the land. It would also make constructing hte railway on top more difficult.

So it was a combination of practical and imposing.

There is a line between impressive and obnoxious.  Had the wall been smaller and shown that the effort been invested to make it work with (rather than through) its surroundings, it would have been a lot more impressive.  Consider that the Fenris could have instead been a 40% scale Borg cube.  That'd be easier to build and just as large, but it'd be a cube in a world of cubes.  There's quite a lot of creations on the server that are more impressive because the creator(s) took the time and invested the energy to make them look good, despite the difficulty.  When it's apparent that a big project was done the quick and easy way, it's not impressive; it's just large.

I think that it's worth revisiting the design, rather than wholesale abandoning it, though.  In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think you could transform it into an attraction that people would be happy to see from their homes on the server, if you're willing to invest the time and effort.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
To clarify, I never left the interior of the domes.  It's plainly visible from inside.

Then either my memory is faulty, or water transparency has been changed. And the former is far more likely.




Quote
There is a line between impressive and obnoxious.  Had the wall been smaller and shown that the effort been invested to make it work with (rather than through) its surroundings, it would have been a lot more impressive.  Consider that the Fenris could have instead been a 40% scale Borg cube.  That'd be easier to build and just as large, but it'd be a cube in a world of cubes.  There's quite a lot of creations on the server that are more impressive because the creator(s) took the time and invested the energy to make them look good, despite the difficulty.  When it's apparent that a big project was done the quick and easy way, it's not impressive; it's just large.

You have a point. Yet there is anotehr factor to consider. The Fenris is a server-wide project. It has dozens of people workign on it (including me). My wall is just me. And it's even bigger than Fenris. Some people even consider using the lava+water building some sort of cheating...it's that's the case the wall would never get done, not in a million years.

I personally conider it's height impressive. Yet it would probably look better if it followed the terrain.
I can try to do that, but I dont' know if I'll be able to pull it off...for one, I'd have to demolish parts of the existing wall (upper layers), for another, building other section with other methods would be a lot slower.


I also consider your rail line would look better without the heavy supports that literally touch my castle. But I let that go, didn't I? so when it comes to obstructing other players view, youre not exactly innoect ther either. ;)
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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
I also consider your rail line would look better without the heavy supports that literally touch my castle. But I let that go, didn't I? so when it comes to obstructing other players view, youre not exactly innoect ther either. ;)

Is this really the comparison you want to make?  Fine.  Let's look at the updated view from the interior of my domes, and then you can show me what the support struts did to the view from your castle.



For reference, please see my previous screenshot dump.  The area is hardly recognizable with walls (plural) on all sides.  I apologize for saying three sides in error last time, but I had checked on the area at night before writing that, when the atrociousness was much less apparent.  There are battlements on the hill, and sections of the wall built right over top of Heward's Handy Hovel and the tunnels connecting the northern and southern domes, not to mention the segment that runs right up to the my observation tower.

How's the rail line compare to that?  I have a couple of support struts next to your castle, which popped up, after I had laid the rail line down.  That's all plainly visible in the aforementioned screenshot dump as well, if you don't care to make your own.

I put a lot of time and effort into that area, and I don't particularly appreciate having it shoved into the Chernobyl Sarcophagus.

 

Offline pecenipicek

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
i believe some destruction is due on trashmans wall. then again, i dont play on your guys server anyhow.


[edit] on the 1.8 vid... i think we'll manage to fit in the new stuff just fine, once the update rolls in :p


i'm particularily interested in those mines.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 02:39:52 am by pecenipicek »
Skype: vrganjko
Ho, ho, ho, to the bottle I go
to heal my heart and drown my woe!
Rain may fall and wind may blow,
and many miles be still to go,
but under a tall tree I will lie!

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)


I was taking those down anyway. They are defunct.
Gonan take care of that later today.


B.t.w. - Before you dissapeared you were talking about building that gravel castle of yours and asked for gravel? I've been collecting it, and have a full chest + a few extra stacks sprinkled around.
Just go to the castle storage, the bottom chest at the right side at the back of the room.


Quote
There are battlements on the hill, and sections of the wall built right over top of Heward's Handy Hovel and the tunnels connecting the northern and southern domes, not to mention the segment that runs right up to the my observation tower.

I made the battlements long before you disspeared, but I don't think you ever noticed them.
The other walls skeletons you mention are not part of the actual wall, and are scheduled for demolition.

Except that segment next to the observation tower... Altough I could technicly bring part of that section down too.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)
Is it possible to a get a top-down image of the area of my kingdom?
I wondered how big it was - and it will help if I'm to re-route the wall (and plan aditional buildings)
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline qazwsx

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Re: Another brick in the wall (Split from Minecraft Beta)

your wall is in light grey
<Achillion> I mean, it's not like he's shoving the brain-goo in a usb slot and praying to kurzweil to bring the singularity

<dsockwell> idk about you guys but the reason i follow God's law is so I can get my rocks off in the afterlife