Author Topic: Steve Jobs dies  (Read 12376 times)

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Offline Pred the Penguin

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lol!
That was informative. I stand corrected.

 

Offline KyadCK

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Can't say I liked the guy or his products, but damn if he wasn't good at what he did.
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Offline Davros

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The doctors could of saved Steve Jobs,
but they weren't allowed to open him up and replace the faulty parts....

 

Offline jr2

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Wut?  They did replace his liver.  :wtf:

  

Offline Darius

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They could have saved my MacBook,

but they didn't open it up and replace the parts until it was too late.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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ok, would you kindly tell us what exactly you think were a few of apples better 'innovations' ?

You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing. Why would I waste my time deconverting your beliefs, when it's clear you won't budge?

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it. Did they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever. Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition? Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition? Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device. Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.

Do you think all of the above are easy things to do? Why didn't the rest of the industry did the same then?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Umm, the iPod Touch is not marketed solely as a handheld gaming device.  People don't buy iPod Touch's to game, they buy them as multifunction devices that are capable of gaming.

Regardless, luis, your point is somewhat negated by the fact that you sound like a rabid fanboy.

I don't think anyone disputes that Apple has had a particular flair for marketing devices that are in no way unique or special to the masses; most people just dispute how "superior" they are.  What Apple HAS very successfully done is marketed their devices to the lowest common denominator, making ridiculous sums of money and pissing off anyone who wants to use their devices their way instead of Apple's way.  That's why you find a lot of technically-savvy people who detest Apple, while people who are more concerned with basic usage and not advanced features or customization are often their biggest fans.  There are exceptions to the rule, of course.

Some examples:
-Apple didn't invent the portable MP3 player.  They didn't even perfect it (there are a lot of more versatile players, with more features, and larger capacity than the iPod series.  I have a Creative Zen Micro which still works, because the battery is replaceable, played FM radio as well, had more storage capacity than comparable iPods, and was $200 cheaper at the time).  They did successfully market MP3 players to the widest audience available, and made a fortune in the process.
-Apple didn't invent, or perfect, the smartphone.  In point of fact, early 1st-gen iPhones were junk, and newer Android devices are capable of a lot more, with a lot better hardware in them, and are cheaper.  What the iPhone did do is successfully plant the idea of a phone that replaces your phone/camera/MP3 player bunch of devices into one as a "must-have" accessory, and did it with a simplistic user interface so it isn't daunting to use for non-technical people.  And again, they made a fortune in the process.  But there are still a lot better products out there (particularly the next-generation Android devices, which anyone who has come to want to do things their way and not put up with iTunes/Apple's way has or will be switching to).
-Tablets.  The sole reason the iPad took off is because of fanboyism and pricing.  The fact of the matter is that Apple's tablets are massively inferior to tablet PCs that were on the market 6 years ago in terms of what they're capable of.  But, because Apple made the pricing look accessible (and a lot of people didn't know there were better alternative out there in terms of portable, interactive, multifunction devices) they sold a bunch.  Then they released the iPad2 with very little in the way of actual tangible improvement less than a year later and sold a bunch more, even to owners of the original iPad.

I see the appeal of Apple to people who just want things to work - but I hate how they cater to people who just don't want to learn about technology, and in the process narrow the abilities and features of the products they release, which in turn affects the entire tech sector.  Couple that with some extremely shady business practices (ridiculous patent lawsuits), misleading advertising (Yeah, macs don't get viruses... HA!), and restriction of the user experience to the "Apple experience," and I won't touch their products.

Some I'm kinda with bobb here - I really do hope that Apple's influence in the tech sector wanes.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:57:13 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Polpolion

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ok, would you kindly tell us what exactly you think were a few of apples better 'innovations' ?

You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing. Why would I waste my time deconverting your beliefs, when it's clear you won't budge?

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it. Did they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever. Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition? Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition? Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device. Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.

Do you think all of the above are easy things to do? Why didn't the rest of the industry did the same then?

Ok it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Ok it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

NO U ;) (so easy to make these remarks innit?)

 

Offline Bobboau

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You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing.
ok, I get it, you have only said that 50,000 ****ing times in this thread. I was expecting a response in terms of usability, or cohesion, but rather you seem to have helped make my case for me.

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it.
marketing.

IDid they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever.
first android is killing them in the market. second that is all about advertising and marketing.

Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition?
I will admit I don't know about this, it is a brand new feature of a brand new phone I have not seen in the wild yet

Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition?
ummm... WTF are you talking about? they are not even a competitor to Nintendo or Sony in this market, the iPod is not a gameing platform, it is a music player that can play games.


Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device.
yes, when it comes to ways of separating people from their money I have said they are quite good at that.

Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.
'correct price point" :lol: yeah, right
ok but seriously, just like everything else on this list, you just assert that they did 'it' right, but in every example you have given you have failed to explain what 'it' was about these products that was actually innovative, you are just asserting them as best without backing it up. and don't come back with that stupid 'it's not a specs thing, you wouldn't understand' _bull****_. I am asking you to tell me clearly what they have done not what they have not done. I challenge you to provide me with anything that does not boil down to marketing. give me comparisons with other products in the field and tell me how they did it and how apple does it and why apple's way was superior. and before you attempt to use Argumentum ad Populum you would at least make sure that apple is in fact in a dominating position in the respective market, about the only market apple is dominating right now is the tablet market.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Umm, the iPod Touch is not marketed solely as a handheld gaming device.  People don't buy iPod Touch's to game, they buy them as multifunction devices that are capable of gaming.

Regardless, luis, your point is somewhat negated by the fact that you sound like a rabid fanboy.

Since when is any point "negated" by someone's feelings even if that idiocy had any hint of truth in it?

No, I'm not a fanboy. The only idevice that I own is a 3 year old ipod nano.

But thanks for that idiotic prejudice. Seems that if anyone defends the rational side and tries to refute the silly idea that apple has never innovated is immediately transformed into a "rabid fanboy". This kind of rethoric does you no good.


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I don't think anyone disputes that Apple has had a particular flair for marketing devices that are in no way unique or special to the masses; most people just dispute how "superior" they are.  What Apple HAS very successfully done is marketed their devices to the lowest common denominator, making ridiculous sums of money and pissing off anyone who wants to use their devices their way instead of Apple's way.  That's why you find a lot of technically-savvy people who detest Apple, while people who are more concerned with basic usage and not advanced features or customization are often their biggest fans.  There are exceptions to the rule, of course.

I always fail to see how this apple focus on simplicity and "just works" (the apple way) type of thing could possibly annoy anyone. If you don't like that kind of thing, don't buy it. Why are linux fans so hateful of the masses? I don't get it.

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Some examples:
-Apple didn't invent the portable MP3 player.  They didn't even perfect it (there are a lot of more versatile players, with more features, and larger capacity than the iPod series.  I have a Creative Zen Micro which still works, because the battery is replaceable, played FM radio as well, had more storage capacity than comparable iPods, and was $200 cheaper at the time).  They did successfully market MP3 players to the widest audience available, and made a fortune in the process.

ipods were sold at reasonable prices, and increasingly so. If you were able to buy cheaper devices from different brands, this just means someone was underselling their own devices due to lack of market share.

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-Apple didn't invent, or perfect, the smartphone.  In point of fact, early 1st-gen iPhones were junk

This is just silly. The iPhone was revolutionary, and many competitors (like RIM for instance) were even in denial about its feasibility (see here. Moreover, the iPhone was always a "work in progress". As a first iteration, it was quite good and revolutionary in many ways. It did lack a lot of things that other phones had.

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, and newer Android devices are capable of a lot more, with a lot better hardware in them, and are cheaper.

What exactly do u mean "a lot more"? I think this is bollocks. Moreover, current benchmarks place the iphone 4s comfortably at no 1 way north of the competition. By "cheaper", if you mean that there are second-rate phones that do not exactly compete directly with the iphone but with the idea of something "near" the quality of the iphone for cheaper prices, sure. The iphone is built to compete with the top tier, not the rest of the market (I myself am about to buy this weekend an android phone due to exactly that). However, if you compare the galaxy S prices, etc., you'll see that the prices are more or less about the same.

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What the iPhone did do is successfully plant the idea of a phone that replaces your phone/camera/MP3 player bunch of devices into one as a "must-have" accessory, and did it with a simplistic user interface so it isn't daunting to use for non-technical people.  And again, they made a fortune in the process.  But there are still a lot better products out there (particularly the next-generation Android devices, which anyone who has come to want to do things their way and not put up with iTunes/Apple's way has or will be switching to).

The iphone 4s is quite competitive, and I've yet to see a honeycomb phone... It almost seems like the "you'll see the amazing thing we are going to deliver next year". This has been the mantra for what, 10 years already? It started with MS, and now it seems android is doing the same thing. I'm the fanboy one, but it seems I'm not the one buying up the vaporware.

There are many other things out there that I'm really fond of. I despise somewhat android, for it being just a KIRF of the iphone since its very beggining, for the hypocrisy of being "open", etc., but I'll probably buy one. I'm more impressed by the WebOS, which has a very intelligent architecture and a very smooth and beautiful interface. It was botched by the ****ing pricks of HP that sunk the company this last year - I hope they'll give it a more prominent future from now on. Even windows phone 7 is more interesting than android. At least, they took a lesson from apple and decided to make their own vision of what a phone should be. Android just smells like uninspired kirf.


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-Tablets.  The sole reason the iPad took off is because of fanboyism and pricing.

Why keep the insults? It's just the cheapest way to piss off any interlocutor: "hey look what I say isn't being confirmed by the market coz people are stoopid". Couldn't it be the other way round? People are impressed and enjoying their apple products and thus have a lot of trust to what the ipad is. Moreover, they made it so that everybody already knew how to use one, since it was equal to the ipod touch and the iphone.

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The fact of the matter is that Apple's tablets are massively inferior to tablet PCs that were on the market 6 years ago in terms of what they're capable of.

Name me one tablet before the ipad that could be on for more than 4 hours, let alone 10. Name me one that had the multitouch easyness of the ipad that is filled with apps that are thought to be used in that form factor?

You can't.

And why do you think people should want an oven in their hands to use software that was built towards keyboards and mouse? All the windows tablets before this were junk, failed to understand what a tablet should be. Apple showed the way. See what android tablets are now? See where windows is headed with W8? And how is this not innovating, leading the industry?

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But, because Apple made the pricing look accessible (and a lot of people didn't know there were better alternative out there in terms of portable, interactive, multifunction devices) they sold a bunch.  Then they released the iPad2 with very little in the way of actual tangible improvement less than a year later and sold a bunch more, even to owners of the original iPad.

How is the huge improvement of speed (specially in graphics) "very little in the way of actual tangible improvements"? And why should it have more improvements, if the first product is already a winner? You lot think with a list of specs in your head. I have a laptop that is an hp filled with "specs" and ports and stuff that I never use.

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I see the appeal of Apple to people who just want things to work - but I hate how they cater to people who just don't want to learn about technology, and in the process narrow the abilities and features of the products they release, which in turn affects the entire tech sector.

What? If the rest of the industry is unable to give you what you want, then that's apple's fault? That's just ridiculous.

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Couple that with some extremely shady business practices (ridiculous patent lawsuits)

Shady? Well, I don't like patents. Hell, I don't like copyright! However, I fail to see the shadiness of this. Apple thinks that Samsung has abused its position of being a supplier of parts for the iphone to make industrial espionage and copycat its design. Therefore, they sued Samsung. The courts will decide the rest.

If we were talking about corporations suing normal people for millions of dollars, you'd get my attention. As it is, I'm really apathetic to your appeal.

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, misleading advertising (Yeah, macs don't get viruses... HA!)

It's not they are unable to. It's not even that they do not exist. It's just that they don't get viruses. And it's true. 99% of the time, at least (which is 98% better than the competition if you don't use AVs, btw).

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, and restriction of the user experience to the "Apple experience," and I won't touch their products.

But that's the beauty of the market! You choose what you want. I personally am enjoying windows 7 - it hasn't pissed me off since I bought it, and many apps that I have are for pcs so I'm forced to use it (gee, the oppression these microsofties are putting myself in!). However, if I just want a device to see the internet, my mail, so on, I would see myself buying an air (which is a very impressive innovating machine in itself) or just an ipad. If you don't like the products for these or other reasons don't buy them. What's there to hate? I don't like Sony Vaios because they are fugly and stupid (full hd in 17 inch laptops? REALLY??!?), but I don't despise sony, nor do I write "buahahah sony fanboys kickk my ass", etc.

Because it's stupid.

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Some I'm kinda with bobb here - I really do hope that Apple's influence in the tech sector wanes.

It will eventually. It all hinges on the competition not doing stupid things, like botching Web OS, making confusing operating systems like Windows 8 (I smell a vista there), and just failing to see how the future is shaped, like Android which is unable to figure itself out (the closed source of honeycomb just cost them the fact that Amazon is instead using Froyo 2.2 in its tablet, which will stagnate the android OS more than a year with the obvious fragmentation that is about to occur and be mantained).

If however the competition is able to have visionaires with the ability to actually ship its products, then we will see progress. Just watch Amazon: they will compete with the ipad pretty well (yeah I know it's probably not to your taste....)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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first android is killing them in the market. second that is all about advertising and marketing.

Killing them? Where?

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/05/02/apple-has-50-profit-share-smartphone-makers-cant-hear-haters-behind-huge-wall-cash/

Oh and sure, it's all about people being stupid and dumb and not realising that your vision of what a phone should be is the actual perfect solution.

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I will admit I don't know about this, it is a brand new feature of a brand new phone I have not seen in the wild yet

I've seen reviews of it. It's a window to the future and it's almost scary. Here for some laughs:

http://thisismynext.com/2011/10/12/siri-weird-things-iphone-4s/

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ummm... WTF are you talking about? they are not even a competitor to Nintendo or Sony in this market, the iPod is not a gameing platform, it is a music player that can play games.

... and yet they are killing the sony and nintendo handheld consoles. Have you been under a rock lately? How is a handheld console whose games cost north of 25, 35 bucks able to compete with a device whose games cost 2, 5 bucks in the internet?

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yes, when it comes to ways of separating people from their money I have said they are quite good at that.

LOL. Tell that to the devs who are winning cash like crazy.

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'correct price point" :lol: yeah, right
ok but seriously, just like everything else on this list, you just assert that they did 'it' right, but in every example you have given you have failed to explain what 'it' was about these products that was actually innovative, you are just asserting them as best without backing it up. and don't come back with that stupid 'it's not a specs thing, you wouldn't understand' _bull****_. I am asking you to tell me clearly what they have done not what they have not done. I challenge you to provide me with anything that does not boil down to marketing. give me comparisons with other products in the field and tell me how they did it and how apple does it and why apple's way was superior. and before you attempt to use Argumentum ad Populum you would at least make sure that apple is in fact in a dominating position in the respective market, about the only market apple is dominating right now is the tablet market.

Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market. Apple is dominating the PMP market. And yeah, Apple is dominating the tablet market. Take the tablet example. They invented a good multitouch tech, combined it with a good screen, inserted a huge battery pack and were able to not go feature creep and slice it enough to be under 500 bucks. Combine it with it using iOS instead of a full blown MacOS (like windows tablets which were crazy), and you do have innovation on your hands. People like you are unimpressed by this. You want the cake and eat it too.

Ok, you want something innovative? The building process of the macbook air (and now all macbooks). A huge box of aluminum which is carved by laser to fit the interior parts of the computer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJnd8KVhkdo

 

Offline Bobboau

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Killing them? Where?

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/05/02/apple-has-50-profit-share-smartphone-makers-cant-hear-haters-behind-huge-wall-cash/

in terms of how many people use the phone, market share, not profit share. yes Apple is making money, I never denied that. Apple is making more money than anyone else, but that's not because a lot of people use their phone it's because Apple charges more per unit. ios usage share on phones is somewhere around 20%, android is somewhere around 50%. android is free so there is no profit being made directly from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Mobile_devices

I've seen reviews of it. It's a window to the future and it's almost scary.
ok, so you haven't actually used it either

... and yet they are killing the sony and nintendo handheld consoles. Have you been under a rock lately? How is a handheld console whose games cost north of 25, 35 bucks able to compete with a device whose games cost 2, 5 bucks in the internet?

here is an article that supports you, note it is in terms of profit share not market share, but I think it shows the ball park roughly
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10470102-37.html
you call 20% share 'killing them', granted it is on the rise, but they are not dominating this market, Nintendo is.

LOL. Tell that to the devs who are winning cash like crazy.
is this intended as an argument against what I said? because it really doesn't go against it.

Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market.
they have something like 10% market share, that is not dominating, and that is only in the US market, they aren't even on the radar world wide.

Apple is dominating the PMP market.
Project Management Professional?

They invented a good multitouch tech
no they didn't, it has been around since the 70s, you could argue they popularized it.

combined it with a good screen, inserted a huge battery pack
I will admit Apple has good build quality

were able to not go feature creep and slice it enough to be under 500 bucks. Combine it with it using iOS instead of a full blown MacOS (like windows tablets which were crazy), and you do have innovation on your hands.

People like you are unimpressed by this. You want the cake and eat it too.

yeah, people like me don't like being treated like children or paying more to get less.
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Offline KyadCK

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And why should it have more improvements, if the first product is already a winner? You lot think with a list of specs in your head. I have a laptop that is an hp filled with "specs" and ports and stuff that I never use.

Congratulations, you are an average user:yes:    You dont use everything -insert technology here- has to offer, so why should it improve? Yes, when I see a new model of something that comes out once a year, I expect to see some real advancements considering the rate technology grows at.

The iPhone 4s is a great example of a company getting lazy. They bumped the cpu, and expect to get payed another what, $200+? Android is already up to par, and has been for a while now, with the iPhone 4s and then adds 3D, dual screen, larger screens (how can anyone use that 3.5" anyway?), removeable SD cards (up to 32GB each) and removeable battery on top of that. And ofcource its available on any carrier and can play flash.

The iPhone is for people who want it to "just work" while android is a tweakers dream. Thats just the way it is.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:10:13 am by KyadCK »
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Offline LHN91

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^ In short, yes. I can understand apple's popularity in a world that seems increasingly polarized between people who know plenty about the hardware they use and people who simply don't care. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard, no word of a lie, from people almost invariably on macbooks, the words, "The internet does more than facebook?" or alternatively "Facebook needs the internet?"

At the price point of almost any apple product, there is another option with similar build quality and better specs. The reason Apple does so well is because they cater hand and foot to people who don't investigate these things.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be absolutist here. I know plenty of people with plenty of computer knowledge who use macs, due to simply liking the way Apple customized openBSD, or needing certain software, or whichever. I'm speaking to the general trend I see though. The fact that they know that OSX is based on openBSD and can run linux commands on it set them apart from most people as it is.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:16:11 am by LHN91 »

 
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Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market.

Apple has laptops?

 

Offline Scotty

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You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.

You mean the Apple portable computers that cost 4-6 times as much as a regular PC laptop and can do roughly the same or fewer things with technically-inferior hardware?

Yeah.  I've heard of them =)

EDIT:  To be a little less facetious, MacBooks are pretty slick machines but you really can get a lot more for a lot less money.  And the MacBook Air is just ****ing stupid.  $1000 for a machine that can actually do LESS than a $250 netbook?  Please.  But there's that marketing thing again.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 01:05:45 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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-snip-

I'm not doing the argue-every-sentence thing with you today, luis.  That said, I will correct a couple of your misconceptions below because they warrant special attention.  As to the rest:

Your entire argument boils down to:  Apple is revolutionary because their products do everything I think they need to and they sell a lot of them.  To which I have a two-word response:

Genius marketers.

Apple's hardware and software is not revolutionary in its specifications, its breadth of functionality, its price point, or its innovations.  But they're really good at selling it.

---

And no, Apple is most decidedly NOT dominating the laptop market.  If you'd care to look at total sales sometime, you'll find that PC manufacturers combined outsell Apple's portable computers by a pretty wide margin.  Apple has a very small fraction of the personal computing market - which, to harp back on one of your other misconceptions, is largely the reason for fewer malware infections:  MacOS is just as vulnerable to attack as Windows, there's just a lot less malware that actively targets it.  It also runs quite a bit less in terms of overall software (fewer points of infiltration to work with).  But I assure you, if you put Windows on an Apple machine without any sort of protection and don't utilize networking practices, it'll get infected just as quickly as any PC.  Macs don't get viruses as often as Window PCs because the MacOS user base is an irrelevant portion of the computing market.  Apple's market share is the only reason they can make that claim, which is dubious at best.

As for MP3 players, find a source that says Creative was underselling their competitors to the iPod.  It was cheaper because the iPod was priced higher, not because of any underselling.  While you're at it, do some research on early tablets.  Colleagues of mine were using Toshiba's tablet PCs in 2006 with pen-touch interfaces for note-taking quite successfully.  Oh, and since it was also a computer it could play video, surf the web, check email, and at the same time allow the student to write papers and look at Powerpoint presentations.  And it was priced similarly to other laptops at the time.

Again - all I see from your posts is justification about how Apple was brilliant because of things that essentially boil down to marketing.  Nowhere have you actually demonstrated that any of Apple's products were/are unique and revolutionary.  They weren't.  They took products and ideas already available, bundled them up aiming at the lowest common denominator of end-user, and applied their marketing machine.  Now they're using the ridiculous sums of cash they've collected from doing so to stifle the competition (Samsung, anyone?  Though the interesting thing there is that I suspect Apple needs Samsung more than Samsung needs Apple).  Nothing you've said paints them in any other light.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not saying that Apple's marketing genius isn't a significant accomplishment (it is, and I'm thankful for the proliferation of tech that has resulted from it), I'm just saying that it is marketing and not innovation that drives Apple's success.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 01:01:17 pm by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.

A bit :P. I never saw them at University, even though in that enviroment laptops are quite common. Mabye I did not look hard enough and those huge apples on the back have become more inconspicious, but still...