Author Topic: I think I need a joystick...  (Read 17694 times)

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Offline KyadCK

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).

What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?

Ya actually, they are designed to be as 'realistic' as possible, its one of the major selling points. They also use better parts, (but not $250 worth of better parts). Some of them have adjustable grips and the like.

If you look at Saitek's site for example, they don't want you to just buy the joystick and throttle, they want you to get rudders, display panels, and whatever else they say should go with it too. Its all about realism.


@jr18 Will this do an an example?
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Logitech's budget sticks are notorious for having very variable quality. Some go bad within warranty, some just outside it, while some keep working adequately for years.

Every logitech stick I have personally tried, however, has failed me miserably. Then I moved to Saitek, went through two Cyborg Evo sticks which, while the sensors (potentiometres) were much better than those Logitech used, also started to go bad and in addition the build quality was quite weak which lead to destruction of index finger trigger on one of the sticks.

Currently I am using a Saitek X52 HOTAS controller, and while it is on paper an excellent controller you might want to stay away of it, at least if it is the basic version with blue trim. If you can get X52Pro at acceptable price, that might be better, but the X52 has at least the following issues:

-inaccurate centering mechanism that leaves a bit of "play" near deadzone, leading to difficult handling right at the centre zone (fixable by removing the gimbal spring, though leads to stick becoming completely free-moving with no centering forces)

-inaccurate twist handle centering mechanism that can make the stick continuously twist rudder to one side or the other (fixable by removing the twist handle spring, requires opening up the handle, be careful with the wires)

-bad ergonomics (arguable); especially the pinkie switch at the joystick itself makes it almost impossible to properly grip the stick and leads to tension in your right hand

-bad design of X/Y axes on the joystick - the Hall effect sensors' placement results in huge hardware deadzone with the original design as well as non-linear raw response from the stick axes.
*deadzone is always bad
*non-linear raw input is bad; you should always make sure that when you slowly move joystick from one side to other, the cursor's speed through the little box remains as constant as possible. Not so with default X52 - it's exponential instead, meaning the cursor moves a little on the center zone and moves FAST to the edges when you move the stick beyond 50% deflection
*can be fixed with a modification to the magnet placement in relation to the Hall effect sensors. Has its problems, but overall results in a better controller.

-bad overall design of several aspects:

*wiring; the wires used by saitek are quite stiff and prone to wearing and tearing. I have had several wires severed in my throttle unit as a result of repeated back and forth movement; while possible to fix as they occur, they are extremely annoying and require some hand-eye co-ordination skills

*wiring locations - on the stick itself there is quite a bit of loose on the wires leading to the handle of the joystick, which can lead to them getting chafed and worn and eventually cut. Can be prevented by wrapping the wire bundle with electrical tape before this occurs.

*PS/2 connector between the throttle and joystick unit is prone to bad contact, leading to momentary loss of connection between throttle and stick. This would otherwise be quite harmless, except every time it happens, the joystick's centering resets on the position it happens to be at. That means if stick is deflected, that position becomes the center of the axes that were deflected. This is a horrible pain in the arse, as you then need to manually re-center the stick again by detaching the PS/2 cable and re-inserting it while joystick is at central position. At best this gives you several seconds of lack of control, and ad worst it can lead to you stalling out of the sky and crashing, or getting shot down, or whatever depending on game you are playing, but it won't be good.

Most of these problems would be solved by Saitek using some common sense and higher quality of wires.


...that said, it is a decent controller with good feature set, good programmability and, depending how demanding you are and how good an unit you happen to receive, will likely give you good years of use. You should just be aware of these possible issues you might experience with it, before you buy it.


The X-52Pro on the other hand apparently has several of these problems solved, such as the linear response/deadzone issue, and it also has programmable MFD (multi-function display) which the standard blue X52 does not have; the MFD in it is a waste of space and utility room, only thing it does is glow in the dark and show what profile you have selected. Oh, and it has a stop watch utility, I guess you can use that if you want to do some navigation or pattern flying.


Also note that in general joystick quality has hugely degraded from the late 90's. Currently, pretty much only CH Products and Thrustmaster's high-end products are the joysticks where you can count on the quality of electronics component remaining properly good for a decent period of time. With Saitek, Logitech, and other budget manufacturers you pretty much get what you pay for - components whose quality control is not always exactly reliable, and can lead to problems such as discontinous response curves, spiking of the axes, or permanently faulty calibration. With some models, you can technically replace some components (potentiometres, namely); with others you'll be stuck with RMA hassle or just getting a new stick and tossing the old malfunctioning one at the back of some closet or something.


Overall, I would recommend staying well away from Logitech Attack 3, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and especially Force 3D Pro.

I have also had bad experience with Logitech-manufactured stick called Wingman Force 3D, which is very similar to Force 3D Pro except carries the Wingman brand, for absolutely no merit of its own.

Also stay away from Saitek AV8R controllers. Bad build quality, bad ergonomics, not worth it at all.


In fact, what I would recommend looking at most for a budget/medium range stick is Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS (with separable throttle) and T-Flight joystick (with integrated throttle), as well as Thrustmaster T.16000M. While I have not had personal experience with these sticks, they are built by Thrustmaster which is a company of great renown regarding gaming peripherals (Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar and Warthog are pretty much the best ones you can get I think).

They can't be worse than Logitech and Saitek's budget stick offerings.
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.

And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
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Offline jg18

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
@jr18 Will this do an an example?
Oh, yeah, I forgot about those.

Logitech's budget sticks are notorious for having very variable quality. Some go bad within warranty, some just outside it, while some keep working adequately for years.
Yup, which as HT mentioned, indicates poor quality control on Logitech's part (or maybe even that Logitech simply doesn't care about quality variation in its products). This variation came across clearly in the reviews on Amazon.

And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
Yup, here for example.

There's a comparison of the major brands from a thread in the (totally unbiased :D) CH Hangar forums here.


 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.

Nope, it's more likely that the games I play require extremely accurate control. Namely, IL-2 Sturmovik.

A joystick with spiking axis is impossible to use there considering the accuracy required to fire effectively. Other flight simulators also suffer from any anomalous behaviour.

I went through three Logitech sticks with same general build and sensor components. Exactly same looking stuff inside the sticks. All three failed in exactly the same fashion - spiking on the axes, and even gaps through which the cursor would jump.

You can call me picky but then you'll also have to acknowledge that the joysticks were impossible to use for the purpose I wanted to use them in. :p

Quote
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.


I am unfamiliar with these reviews as well as unfamiliar with the thrustmaster budget sticks personally. I expect that they probably share some of the issues with other budget sticks, mainly regarding centering system which is easily solved in most controllers by simply removing the springs anyway.

Honestly, who needs the centering spring tension anyway? It is an utterly fake way of doing things. You can feel the stick position with your hands, and you can see what your aircraft/vehicle is doing... There is no spring tension in traditional aircraft controls anyway; when the aircraft is stationary you can move the stick around freely. When I remove the springs, that is what I get - a freely moving controller without a "catch" in the middle that I end up fighting with.

Properly functional force feedback would be ideal as it would simulate the centering of the stick by aerodynamic forces, but accurate enough FFB is very hard to do well, and I'll rather take no centering forces at all than ****ty spring tension or ****ty force feedback.


I really doubt that the actual electronics in Thrustmaster budget sticks is worse than that in Logitech budget sticks, but if you have some review links, please do post them here as they will be relevant to the topic anyway.


EDIT: Read Sushi's statement about the large deadzone in the T-Flight HOTAS. Right now I don't remember if the Logitech sticks exhibited significant deadzone (other problems were more obvious and alarming). Are there any similar reports of the T.16000M? Supposedly it uses better sensors of some type. Not sure if Hall effect sensor, optical, or something else.
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.

Nope, it's more likely that the games I play require extremely accurate control. Namely, IL-2 Sturmovik.

A joystick with spiking axis is impossible to use there considering the accuracy required to fire effectively. Other flight simulators also suffer from any anomalous behaviour.

I went through three Logitech sticks with same general build and sensor components. Exactly same looking stuff inside the sticks. All three failed in exactly the same fashion - spiking on the axes, and even gaps through which the cursor would jump.

You can call me picky but then you'll also have to acknowledge that the joysticks were impossible to use for the purpose I wanted to use them in. :p

Fair enough, FS2 isnt the most precision demanding game in existence.

Quote
Quote
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.


I am unfamiliar with these reviews as well as unfamiliar with the thrustmaster budget sticks personally. I expect that they probably share some of the issues with other budget sticks, mainly regarding centering system which is easily solved in most controllers by simply removing the springs anyway.

Honestly, who needs the centering spring tension anyway? It is an utterly fake way of doing things. You can feel the stick position with your hands, and you can see what your aircraft/vehicle is doing... There is no spring tension in traditional aircraft controls anyway; when the aircraft is stationary you can move the stick around freely. When I remove the springs, that is what I get - a freely moving controller without a "catch" in the middle that I end up fighting with.

Which reminds me, I need to get around to removing the spring in my 3D Pro...

Quote
I really doubt that the actual electronics in Thrustmaster budget sticks is worse than that in Logitech budget sticks, but if you have some review links, please do post them here as they will be relevant to the topic anyway.

Nope, just user comments. Personaly, I rank those higher, and the 3D Pro is relatively high in public favor for a budget stick ($40 and under mark).

And I (unlike most people) have 3 different stores I can walk in to buy joysticks of all different price ranges, they're even out on display  :D  If it breaks, I can get a replacement within hours, so it is less of a concern for me.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Quote
Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.

Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...
As for uncomfortable grips... I've yet to have an issue... (it's more a personal thing anyhow)

Also, worth a lot less THAN just 10$
Not then...
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Offline Dragon

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Quote
Properly functional force feedback would be ideal as it would simulate the centering of the stick by aerodynamic forces.
While this is fine on older planes (like in IL-2), on modern fighters it's actually unrealistic (or at least in F-16). Fly-by-wire system on F-16 doesn't have FF (you get an audible warning when you're going to stall though). At least, that's what they told me on FreeFalcon forums (it's a very realistic F-16 flightsim, many players are actual fighter pilots).
My advise is, when you don't need FF and have a lot of money, go with CH. Alternatively, you could look for a good deal on an auction (they're so sturdy that you don't need to worry about buying an used device), which is what I did, getting the whole HOTAS for what amount to 180$ (500 zloty. Normally, you could barely a single part of the 3-part set for this, at least going by manufacturer's prices).

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
I can concur with Herra on the electronics quality of Logitech's older sticks, at least.  I had a Wingman Force 3D that, after maybe two years of fairly-light usage, experienced that same crazy axis-spiking, especially on the twist.  Meanwhile, my ancient and much-loved MS Sidewinder 3D Pro (the real 3D Pro :D) is still going strong, probably about 15 years after I first got my hands on it.  I currently use a Cyborg Evo for FS, which has both its high and low points, one of the latter being that it's fairly large for my hands.

  

Offline KyadCK

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Quote
Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.

Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...
As for uncomfortable grips... I've yet to have an issue... (it's more a personal thing anyhow)

Also, worth a lot less THAN just 10$
Not then...

I forgot to mention how the sensors are horrid, but I think Herra covered that for me. If the extreme 3D pro is bad, the attack 3 is abysmal. Last time I tried it, I couldnt even get the full turn speed of a fighter with an attack 3, with full sensitivity and no deadzone, with the spring out.

Yes I know the handle is the same both ways, that's why its a righty/lefty stick, they make it so its 'usable' both ways. You lose half your base keys that way. The hat is just extra keys. Also, with the lesser total key count on the joystick, you're forced to hunt 'n' peck at the keyboard, losing control with the throttle during that time (note: throttle and roll are 2 very big advantages to the joystick). And roll is very very important in controlling turns, be it in a flight sim or freespace.  Even more so on ships with wide gunpoints or when attacking a target with a thin profile. Like people keep claiming with FF, once you can use roll you'll never want to go back.

Keep in mind none of these are assumptions. I actually have them (one with and one without the spring) to compare.

Also, being a grammar nazi does not help any argument.
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...

Don't need roll...

Don't need roll.

 :nervous:

 :eek2:

 :wtf:
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Offline jg18

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
Yeah, I was wondering about that, too, actually. Roll is invaluable defensively (as part of dodging missiles and enemy fire) and supposedly also useful offensively (as part of lining up targets) although I don't have much experience with using it for that.

EDIT: Because I like citing my sources (it's in section 6.0):

Quote from: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/188670-freespace-2/faqs/19996
Double Turns

Most pilots just use the left and right controls on the keyboard or joystick, but forget about the 'rotation' controls. The 'rotation' controls make you ship rotate about it's central axis (you don't turn, you rotate.) Now, combine this with normal turns, and you have a way to evade almost all enemy primary fire, and a great way to evade enemy missiles. Not only is it a good defensive measure, it can also help you line up more agile targets.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 01:20:13 am by jg18 »

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
I played FreeSpace without roll for years
Hell, I didn't know I could roll until six months ago really.

Also, the way I do roll now is by pushing and holding one of the buttons. I don't use it often, but you can roll if you're willing to compromise with the situation at hand (pun intended!)
So nuuwh (that's my sticking my tongue at you sound)

However, I never really noticed with sensitivity. It seemed to do as it was supposed to...
Ah well. I like my Logitech Attack 3. It was cheap, and it works for all the games I use it for

"Also, being a grammar nazi does not help any argument."
Wasn't aware we were arguing... dammit. I always miss these memo's
(I didn't know we were in seriousness. I was just giving my experience in comparison to yours. That's a shame though, Logitech has never failed me... and yet it seems to hate everyone else...)
"No"

 

Offline Cyker

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
It annoys me that companies still use pots and resistance strips in their sticks; My Sidewinder 3D Pro hasn't skipped a beat since I bought it - The saturn ring and optical sensor setup still works brilliantly and since I got the DigitalOverdrive to USB convertor from sickone over at the descentbb it's been sharp as ever!

That stick was really ahead of its time; I do want to replace it but I've not seen a single stick that could take the abuse this stick has. I really hate sticks that use gimbals as they're either sprung too softly or it's hard to get accurate diagonals, and the saitek center-spring thing just wears out that stupid plastic hat. Even my brother's ridiculously expensive TM HOTAS Mk1 is having issues now (It's made of metal but stuff is still breaking off it, and the pots are completely shot!)

If only Microsoft still made Sidewinder sticks!

 

Offline LordMelvin

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
...That's a shame though, Logitech has never failed me... and yet it seems to hate everyone else...

It's never failed me either. Heck, I wouldn't have upgraded from my old Logitech Wingman (The one I used to play Wing Commander 2, back in the nineties - Two axis plus a throttle, two buttons, manual calibration dials on the base so you could try to fix what your annoying kid sibling did to your settings...) if it wasn't for the combination of not having a gameport connection on my new rig and the bit of the cord that the (presumed) mouse got to a couple years back.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
If only Microsoft still made Sidewinder sticks!
Amen.  I need to pick up a backup 3D Pro at some point, just in case mine finally bites the big one.

 

Offline KyadCK

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Re: I think I need a joystick...

Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
They do exist, but the 3D Pro won't work in its legitimate digital mode with them.  For that you'd need the third-party adapter that someone in the Descent community cooked up.

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
*snip*
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D

I've had one joystick for six years
What in the hell have you been doing to yours?
"No"

 

Offline LordMelvin

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Re: I think I need a joystick...
*snip*
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D

I've had one joystick for six years
What in the hell have you been doing to yours?

Judging by the hardware on display, at least two of those look to date to the very early ninties. I know I picked up a wingman very similar to left-front one second hand and well used when I was still on a dollar-a-week allowance...
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