[Marauder]

Dear HLPers,

I haven't been back in a long, long time, but it warms my heart to see HLP is still in strong spirits.  Fellow forumites, I would like to bring to your attention today a concern that has long existed in many of our hearts, as gamers, artists, storytellers of the FreeSpace Universe. It is time, I feel, to address the gaping hole which our community actively chose to ignore not long after its foundation, a hole which resulted in bitter speech between older forumites and the shunning of newbies who mentioned it.  A hole we - the HLP community – have taught ourselves to disregard. 

No longer.  This community needs to once again rally around a common cause:  for FS3.

Think about what this game has done for you, how it may have changed your life, despite being nothing more than a game.  The boldest of you took that source code and morphed it into the globally accessible FreeSpace Open. Some of you have gained intense modding experience, creating monumental works for integration in-game.  Some of you tried your hands at storytelling, and came up with immersive campaigns and fanfiction that  continue to quench our desires to further expand the non-canon FreeSpace universe. There were those of you that voice acted, those of you that killed us with laughter (I'm looking at YOU, Axem), and of especially honourable mention, those of you out there that founded, grew, and kept this community running and improving after all this time.

For me, at the tender age of 8, FreeSpace cultivated my already blossoming interest in astronomy, astrophysics, and astrobiology.  It was a residual factor in my application and acceptance into the astrophysics program at my university, and by association exposed me to the wonders of Neil de Grasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and other great minds.  In addition, as a musician, FreeSpace has provided me with music to appreciate, analyze over and over again, and given me compositional inspiration. As a visual artist, it motivated me to start learning to model and animate in Blender.  Last but not least it resulted in the creation of a friendly community that thrives on making campaigns, restorations, upgrades, fan art, interviews and much more, all attributed in part to the original game.

Therefore, I ask: What do we need to do to help get FreeSpace 3 on the shelves? Sandwich posted back in 2004 an e-mail response from Dave Baranec regarding the FreeSpace license and Volition's discussion with THQ about its acquisition.  What can we do to resurrect these talks if they are not happening?  The post stated that the FS license could cost upwards of $300k, though who knows what the actual number could be now.  Would Volition accept our financial contributions in the form of a Kickstarter fundraiser?  HLP could easily meet such a benchmark, I think.  Who could we talk to about this?

Furthermore, how can we help Volition to eliminate issues that surfaced with the release of FreeSpace 2? Last time I heard, one of the issues was that there were not enough copies of FreeSpace 2 to go around; but that was hearsay, can I get a fact on this? Nevertheless, if you want to go buy a copy on eBay you can sometimes look forward to spending around $100 - enough of a turn-off for my dad to buy me a new copy 5 years ago, especially when I got FS2 for my 9th birthday for $24. HLP was instrumental in making the game so easily accessible; even to this day, the number of downloads is nothing to sneeze at.  FreeSpace 3 can be better marketed to reach a larger audience, and I think certain HLPers may have good ideas about what happened with FreeSpace 2, and how to not repeat the same mistakes with its sequel.  Red Faction and Saints Row have met considerable success in the hands of THQ – what stops FS3 from following suit?

I call upon the Hard Light community to band together to convince Volition make FreeSpace 3 happen.  I will dedicate a huge, passionate effort to this, but I need help.  I'm not the large-scale leadership type of individual, and I know I haven't addressed even close to all the issues, but know there are many of you here who can.  I need direction – I'm a pawn, use me!  There are a lot of popular games out there NOW (well, that's my opinion) that don't have even half the substance that FreeSpace and its sequel had, back in the 90s.

Now, with General Battuta's interview with Jason Scott only having happened in February 2011, it is revealed to us that there is a small flame of hope inside Volition Inc.  There is no better community than Hard Light Productions to feed that flame and make it a glorious star for all to see.  Think about it!  The Great War raged with the Shivans arriving at the beginning of the 14th year, and now, we are at the dawn of the 14th year since Descent: FreeSpace's release.  If that isn't a freaking sign, I don't know what is.  If anyone can get the ball rolling on this, we can. HLP can!

Once again, I would like to shout loud and proud:  for FS3! No longer should anyone be scolded for saying it or posting it in their signatures or posts! I hope you will join me in this endeavour to remind Volition of the loyal fanbase here at HLP, and give them some of the tools they need to bring about the conclusion on which we long ago stopped waiting.  There was a reason why we chased Derek Smart away from the license, and there is a reason why HLP still exists. 

Thank you for reading.

Marauder

P.S. You truly know a game deserves more attention when Volition needs to post a note on their contact page telling submitters not to pester them about buying FreeSpace games because they don't have any.   

[SypheDMar]

While is respected and FS3 something worth looking at, I'm not sure if I trust to make a game right now with the THQ fiasco going on. It'd be nice but not needed.

Now if we can Kickstart funding to buy FreeSpace from Interplay, that would be an exciting achievement.

[Jeff Vader]

Therefore, I ask: What do we need to do to help get FreeSpace 3 on the shelves? Sandwich posted back in 2004 an e-mail response from Dave Baranec regarding the FreeSpace license and Volition's discussion with THQ about its acquisition.  What can we do to resurrect these talks if they are not happening?  The post stated that the FS license could cost upwards of $300k, though who knows what the actual number could be now.

I got the impression that Interplay (owning the FreeSpace IP) wants an awful lot of money for the license, and probably won't even sell the license, no matter what.

Furthermore, how can we help Volition to eliminate issues that surfaced with the release of FreeSpace 2? Last time I heard, one of the issues was that there were not enough copies of FreeSpace 2 to go around; but that was hearsay, can I get a fact on this?

I heard it was  because of poor marketing; few people knew FS2 had been released.

I call upon the Hard Light community to band together to convince Volition make FreeSpace 3 happen.  I will dedicate a huge, passionate effort to this, but I need help.  I'm not the large-scale leadership type of individual, and I know I haven't addressed even close to all the issues, but know there are many of you here who can.  I need direction – I'm a pawn, use me!

There are an awful lot of people who are like this: idea guys. "Hey, I think now is the time to make FS3. But I can't do it, so I'll need people to form a team with strong leadership, superb writing skills, top-of-the-line FREDders, modders etc and then make FS3. Chop chop!" While ideas are great (even I occasionally have them), this "FS3 project" would first and foremost require a person who will actually seize control by the throat and start getting results, instead of asking other people to do the stuff. Not to mention preferably the license so no one would get their asses sued. Nothing personal, just saying.

[Marauder]

I got the impression that Interplay (owning the FreeSpace IP) wants an awful lot of money for the license, and probably won't even sell the license, no matter what.

This shouldn't even be allowed!  If they're just going to sit on their hands and refuse to sell the license, with no intention to do anything with it, that's just ridiculous.  "I have this thing I can't do anything with, but that means no one else gets it either!" is what such an action says to me.  But as I said, perhaps in the form of a Kickstarter page, HLP could chip in quite a lot to the license purchasing.  Double Fine was able to pull that off recently with their new game, and it makes me wonder about the comparative size of the Volition and Double Fine fanbases.

There are an awful lot of people who are like this: idea guys. "Hey, I think now is the time to make FS3. But I can't do it, so I'll need people to form a team with strong leadership, superb writing skills, top-of-the-line FREDders, modders etc and then make FS3. Chop chop!" While ideas are great (even I occasionally have them), this "FS3 project" would first and foremost require a person who will actually seize control by the throat and start getting results, instead of asking other people to do the stuff. Not to mention preferably the license so no one would get their asses sued. Nothing personal, just saying.

Oh trust me, I know where you're coming from.  No offense taken.  It's like people who go up to individual programmers saying something like, "I have an idea for something to rival Facebook, but it needs x, y and z, can you get it done for me in 3 months?"  However, I think you've missed part of my point.  I'm not saying HLP needs to round up their best modders, writers, promoters, etc., and get FS3 done; that's preposterous.  What I am saying is that particular members of the community have contacts with Volition, and could leverage those connections to voice HLP's desires to see FS3.  It's Volition that needs to make FS3, not us (!!), and I'm wondering aloud about how this can happen and how HLP can be supportive of their efforts – not employed by Volition itself or taking it upon themselves to actually make FS3.  If FS3, for instance, had been entirely delayed based on lack of finances for the license, a Kickstarter project could give them a boost (but of course, we know it's not that simple).  The recent interview with Jason Scott only demonstrates that Volition is 100% aware of our existence, that the staff still have teeny desires to make FS3, and even glimpses into what FS3 could have been about.

Basically, I am also offering myself to help organize some junk, whether it's conducting interviews, monitoring news at THQ and Interplay, or whatnot.  I have been in leadership roles my whole life, but they were local efforts – not at the scale of taking charge of an interest group on the Internet, for instance, and poor health will not permit me to do so.  I have no experience whatsoever with petitioning for some sort of change, which is why I wrote the letter to hear from others what's practical, and what's not.  What I think HLP would be effective at is continuing their interviews, for instance, or providing financial support, or putting the pressure on Interplay to give up the license if they indeed will never do anything with it. 

In the end, it's all about what Volition chooses to do, but I feel we can be a driving force that will encourage them to get that game ultimately published.  Convincing them to create the game is the first step. 

[Cyborg17]

The rules of business are stupid.  And that's coming from an Economics major.

The best bet for Freespace 3 might actually be to ask the writers (and maybe concept artists and modelers) at Volition what exactly they wanted to do and just do it for them. And I mean, mission-by-mission and story point to story point, or as close to that as we can get.  We have people in this forum who know how to do everything necessary to make a game, and if we could get a complete picture of what should be cannon, then we could make it a reality.  None of us would have to decide the story direction of cannon, and we would all get to not only play the sequel, but actually take part in creating it.

We might have to ask Volition when we some decision needs to be made since they won't be able to anticipate everything, and we probably wouldn't be able to strictly call it Freespace 3 because of licensing, but it would be at least worth it to mention it to  .

We would use the FS2 engine or a derivative of it (since making a whole new engine would probably be a waste of time), use the HTL versions of the old assets, and make necessary assets based on concept art and writer descriptions/necessities (and also modeler's stated preferences: things we aren't aware of that will affect how we would make the models). 

And what other thing can't we create?  What part of the game haven't we worked with?  It's silly to have this much talent who loves the franchise and to not try something like this.

[The E]

The best bet for Freespace 3 might actually be to ask the writers (and maybe concept artists and modelers) at Volition what exactly they wanted to do and just do it for them. And I mean, mission-by-mission and story point to story point, or as close to that as we can get.  We have people in this forum who know how to do everything necessary to make a game, and if we could get a complete picture of what should be cannon, then we could make it a reality.  None of us would have to decide the story direction of cannon, and we would all get to not only play the sequel, but actually take part in creating it.

We already know all there is to know about the planned FS3. You have to understand that FS3 was cancelled long before it ever got to more than the most preliminary concepts; as such, only a very rough outline exists.

[Cyborg17]

Well, maybe we could ask them to come up with a basic story outline of what they as a whole would have liked to see if there were no unreasonable limits to what could be done.  And also a general idea of what the Terran/Vasudan/Shivan craft would look like in the story's time frame.  It wouldn't have to be grandiose, just enough to push us in the right direction.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but wouldn't it be awesome to tell the story that the writers would want to be told, even if it's not exactly the way they would tell it?  It would be an awesome project to attempt.

[The E]

Okay, I am sorry to ask this, but do you have any concept of how game development works? FS3 was cancelled way before it entered the formal pre-production stage, as such, there are only some vague plot ideas. No actual designs exist.

[mjn.mixael]

This community needs to once again rally around a common cause:  for FS3.

Nah, I'm good. I like where things are at now. The lack of closure to FS's storyline was very likely a large catalyst that has played a role in the number of creative projects this community has seen. And now, instead of one vision for post Capella, we have many.. and it's awesome. Means even more FS gameplay. Who cares if it's "canon", it's fun to play.

[MatthTheGeek]

We have people in this forum who know how to do everything necessary to make a game, and if we could get a complete picture of what should be cannon, then we could make it a reality.  None of us would have to decide the story direction of cannon, and we would all get to not only play the sequel, but actually take part in creating it.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[General Battuta]

The only realistic chance I see for to get their IP back is via a really remarkable Kickstarter showing or the disintegration of Interplay.

Even if that happens, THQ is in dire straits financially, and probably won't seek or get permission to do a low-return project like FreeSpace when they need guaranteed cashflow right now.

[Cyborg17]

Okay, I am sorry to ask this, but do you have any concept of how game development works? FS3 was cancelled way before it entered the formal pre-production stage, as such, there are only some vague plot ideas. No actual designs exist.

I definitely understood that the first two times.

Ask for them.  The writers probably want to continue the story, ask them for an outline and they might just write one.  Everyone knows the chance for a commercial game is incredibly low, why not say that to them and then say, "we'll make the game you want to see made but can't make".

[Woolie Wool]

Is there really a market for an AAA space sim game? For AAA games, you could need 500,000 sales just to break even. The gaming industry and audience were vastly different in 1999--the whole market was smaller, budgets were smaller, technological limits were much more restrictive and thus the idea of using a space setting to do away with computationally expensive level design was very attractive. Sci-fi and space in general were also much more popular back then--in the mid-90s there were at least four space opera series running concurrently on US television. Star Trek was a license for Paramount to print money. The International Space Station project was subjected to massive hype. Now we're left with one sci-fi series (Doctor Who) that is more about its own nostalgia than the future and a rotting husk of a space agency that is more or less running on 40-year-old technology.

[Klaustrophobia]

if they make it, i will buy it.  might even pre-order it if it gets to that point (only game i'd EVER do that for).  but that's the extent of how much i care about FS3.  i'm not expending any more effort in a feeble attempt to get it made than to state my intention to purchase it if it does.

[Dragon]

If don't know why people still talk about FS3. There's Blue Planet for those who want a well done continuation of the story (in fact, it was spot on with more than one plot point  wanted for FS3) and a re-made version of Inferno is coming soon for those who would like a more "traditional" approach. Making a story "canon" doesn't make it better in any way, and both of those projects are quite well make from the technical side. And I don't think that making a new engine when SCP has gone so far makes sense, it already has (or will have in the near future) most features that modern game engines use. It's not cutting edge, but looks reasonably good.

[Marauder]

Now if we can Kickstart funding to buy FreeSpace from Interplay, that would be an exciting achievement.

This seems feasible!  Addressing HLP plus the folks on Reddit and other forums who aren't registered on HLP could certainly make this possible, I think.  That's the beauty of a Kickstarter project; if we don't meet the goal of the fundraiser, everyone gets their money back.

Is there really a market for an AAA space sim game? For AAA games, you could need 500,000 sales just to break even. The gaming industry and audience were vastly different in 1999--the whole market was smaller, budgets were smaller, technological limits were much more restrictive and thus the idea of using a space setting to do away with computationally expensive level design was very attractive.

As several others mentioned, THQ is in financial hell right now, and I think that's all the more of a reason for THQ to like the idea of a space sim – because it's computationally inexpensive, thus the game could be made faster.  You do bring up a good point about the market though.  Apparently in the first 6 months of FS2's release they only sold just less than 27,000 copies, and Kulas wasn't happy with that.  You could argue that with a bigger market, there might actually be way more open-minded individuals than there were in 1999 to actually buy the game now.  Unfortunately, you can't just compare how many copies of FS2 were sold out of total games sold in 1999, and scale that up to total games sold in 2011. 

If don't know why people still talk about FS3. There's Blue Planet for those who want a well done continuation of the story (in fact, it was spot on with more than one plot point wanted for FS3) and a re-made version of Inferno is coming soon for those who would like a more "traditional" approach. Making a story "canon" doesn't make it better in any way, and both of those projects are quite well make from the technical side.

Out of all the beautiful campaigns out there, I think there's only been one point of Volition's that hasn't been addressed, and that was the incursion on the Shivan homeworld/Shivantown.  I am not bashing the technical advances the SCP has made on this game, and think it would be pretty neat if most of FS2's assets were used for FS3.  All the better if FS2 Open's assets were used as well.

[Woolie Wool]

THQ being in dire straits is going to make them less likely to gamble on FreeSpace, not more. They're going to want a safe, reliable source of revenue, not an experiment in something that may or may not have any significant market.

[The E]

This seems feasible!  Addressing HLP plus the folks on Reddit and other forums who aren't registered on HLP could certainly make this possible, I think.  That's the beauty of a Kickstarter project; if we don't meet the goal of the fundraiser, everyone gets their money back.

Uhhhhh

As several others mentioned, THQ is in financial hell right now, and I think that's all the more of a reason for THQ to like the idea of a space sim – because it's computationally inexpensive, thus the game could be made faster.

No. Just, no. I can see you are enthusiastic about this whole thing, but you have literally no idea what modern game development is like. A AAA game takes about 2 years to design, produce, test, and publish. Even moderately complex mods can take that long, if not longer (The BP project has been going on in one form or another since 2007, for example). That an engine for a space combat game seems less complex than one for an FPS is a misconception. Vehicle design, UI design, and all the other parts of designing a game do not take appreciably longer whether you are making an FPS or anything else.

  You do bring up a good point about the market though.  Apparently in the first 6 months of FS2's release they only sold just less than 27,000 copies, and Kulas wasn't happy with that.  You could argue that with a bigger market, there might actually be way more open-minded individuals than there were in 1999 to actually buy the game now.  Unfortunately, you can't just compare how many copies of FS2 were sold out of total games sold in 1999, and scale that up to total games sold in 2011. 

Let us take modern space sims as a meterstick, then. X3, last I heard, never sold more than 100k copies. SOL: Exodus sold even less (and bear in mind that S:E was an indy game with a very low budget). Even with services such as Steam and Desura, the spacesim genre does not sell well at the moment.

Out of all the beautiful campaigns out there, I think there's only been one point of Volition's that hasn't been addressed, and that was the incursion on the Shivan homeworld/Shivantown.  I am not bashing the technical advances the SCP has made on this game, and think it would be pretty neat if most of FS2's assets were used for FS3.  All the better if FS2 Open's assets were used as well.

Because that's  's vision of what would happen next in the FS universe. There aren't all that many campaigns out there that attempt to offer any more explanations about the Shivans. did an immense job in portraying the Shivans as an inscrutable enemy that is like a red glowing force of nature, trying to make them more understandable is a task that takes very good writers to pull off without making silly mistakes.

[yuezhi]

 i think  is more interested in making descent 4 atm

[Dragon]

That's not a bad thing, as long as they don't mess it up. Descent is actually a quite unique series, not to mention somewhat related to FS. I didn't heard of any similar shooter (maybe because all Descent games were so sea sickness-inducing). In fact, because of that, and the reasons I already stated, I'd prefer to see D4 than FS3.