[Klaustrophobia]

Wasn't there a fan-made alternative storyline to FS2 in the works?  I'm not sure FS3 would be that much of a creativity killer.  Especially if the Shivans turned out to be the tip of an iceberg.  Then, you could still make your own FS2 sequels, plus FS4 and anything in-between.  Adding creativity into the FS universe from a canon source shouldn't stifle creativity; it should spark more!

My thoughts, FWIW.

x10000

[NGTM-1R]

His thoughts don't include the extreme unlikelihood of us getting a FRED3.

[jr2]

Why wouldn't they include that?  That would be like shooting off your toes.  Have game makers recently stopped releasing the editing software for their games?  I know some never did, but the ones that have in the past, have they stopped?  Has Interplay or somehow given us that message?

I don't see what makes it extremely unlikely.  Maybe I missed the memo.  Can someone pass it around so I can have a look-see?  (I'm being serious: what's the reasoning behind that thought?)

[NGTM-1R]

Editors, particularly simplefuneasy editors like FRED, are a dead thing. Let's be honest: they were never that common, either. I think Skyrim might have one (if you can call it that; it's probably pretty crowded so I'm not sure "easy to use" is a good way to describe it). I would hard-pressed to name another game in the last five years which did.

FRED in itself was unique in the genre. Wing Commander didn't have a feature like this. X-Wing Alliance had a half-assed random mission generator.

Editors, particularly easy, usable editors, are not common. They never really were. Would we still have a modding community? Probably. Would we have such simple tools, so that pretty much anybody here can spend a couple hours and turn out a mission? Not likely. Would we be able to build campaigns like the one the game came with? Again, not likely.

Unless you expect an indie game team to waltz in and match or exceed the achievements of the SCP and original FS2 over the last...several decades, an editor like FRED is very unlikely. And if it's an indie game team, well, I don't think many of us will be very impressed with the end product anyways. It would be a real kick in the ass if FS3 came out and we ended up with something that doesn't compare favorably to Transcend or Homesick, much less WiH.

[NGTM-1R]

Basically what I'm saying is that we were uniquely lucky to get the first FRED. Because FS2 reused a fair deal of FS1's coding, FRED2 wasn't hard to make so they just sort of tossed it out there.

There's no reason to assume we'll be so lucky again. Most gaming companies want people to buy their extra content, not make extra content and trade it freely on their own.

[jg18]

Well, presumably had to make FRED2 so they could make FS2. It's the same tool that their mission designers used, after all.

When it comes to bolstering the modding community, releasing FRED2 to the public was a much bigger deal than releasing the FS2 source code. Since FRED is the same tool used to make FS2, people can continue to make campaigns and tell new stories with it, using the engine in ways that had never considered. If they had released only the source code of the engine and not FRED, though, what could we have done, other than things like adding cross-platform support, graphical enhancements, and the like? There would be no new campaigns. Imagine HLP without that. Most of the subforums here wouldn't exist.

EDIT: Yes, given the source code of the engine, we could probably make our own mission editor. But it would be a lot of work, and it wouldn't be the same.

[headdie]

Supply of mission editors is a fickle thing, the mid to late 90's was the "golden" era for them with many games shipping with some form of editing software, but usually there were limitations such as no way to tell a story in mission with the editor, or no support for non retail campaigns and it tended to be strategy and FPS that came with them, and usually it was some dumbed down tool, not the as used by the dev like we get with FRED.

[Mongoose]

I think the Source Engine has some pretty hefty modding tools associated with it, but that's Valve, so it's already something of a special case.

[headdie]

Valve is probably the company with the strongest community/3rd party ethic, i mean look at CS and DoD, they started out as any other mod and are now officially supported by Valve, you just don't see that anywhere else!

[MatthTheGeek]

Valve is a pretty special, actually unique case in the video game industry. Hell, in the tech industry as a whole.

[jr2]

Well, presumably had to make FRED2 so they could make FS2. It's the same tool that their mission designers used, after all.

That is what's puzzling me.  I'm assuming game creators don't pull out Notepad, Photoshop, and a hex editor to code their games.  They ofc use tools.  So why is it any skin off of their teeth to release those tools?  If they release extra content, well, people will buy it for the content.  If they did more than a half-assed job at it, anyways.  I guess that might explain the problem.    They are hoping that people will buy their extra content even though it's poorly written and shoddy, just because they liked the game and are trying to get more enjoyment out of it (or are trying to get their hard-earned money's worth out of it!)  -- whereas, if there's free 3rd party content, maybe people will be a bit more reserved about spending their money on it.  I propose they do an excellent job with their extra content, and then they'll get their money's worth and then some. 

[General Battuta]

Well, presumably had to make FRED2 so they could make FS2. It's the same tool that their mission designers used, after all.

That is what's puzzling me.  I'm assuming game creators don't pull out Notepad, Photoshop, and a hex editor to code their games.  They ofc use tools.  So why is it any skin off of their teeth to release those tools?  If they release extra content, well, people will buy it for the content.  If they did more than a half-assed job at it, anyways.  I guess that might explain the problem.    They are hoping that people will buy their extra content even though it's poorly written and shoddy, just because they liked the game and are trying to get more enjoyment out of it (or are trying to get their hard-earned money's worth out of it!)  -- whereas, if there's free 3rd party content, maybe people will be a bit more reserved about spending their money on it.  I propose they do an excellent job with their extra content, and then they'll get their money's worth and then some. 

It's not quite this simple. Some tools used in modern game dev are extremely complex and integrated - for example, baking a level may require direct access to the entire animation pipeline, including all kinds of proprietary software, as well as a weekend's worth of time compiling **** on a special computer setup.

[jr2]

Yuck.

[Dragon]

It used to be that simple, but it isn't now. FRED could get away with using a greatly simplified LISP. ArmAII uses a normal programming language (I don't remember which one) for it's missions events. No simple drop-down lists, neat-looking operator trees and simple syntaxes. And to make models that aren't props, you need to know yet another language (most likely LUA). BI released plenty of dev tools, but they're not exactly easy to use, not to mention there's a lot of them. For FS2, all you'll ever need are: AniView, VPView, PCS2, a text editor which can save as plain text, a modeling program that can save to .DAE and/or .COB and graphics program which can load and save PNG, PCX, DDS, TGA and JPG. Three specialized tools and three "generic" tools.

[StargateSpankyHam]

I would be very disappointed if FS3 hit shelves tomorrow. In fact, I'm pretty sure a large piece of my inner gamer would die.

Why? Imagine what something like that could do to the modding community. Imagine the endless debates among the coders, trying to decide between continuing FS2 open or moving to FS3 open. The FS3'ers would obviously want the enhanced features and graphics of the new game, but then again, what incentive would volition have of releasing FRED3 or any real modding tools for the game? In fact, with the present state of the gaming industry, I do not trust them to readily allow end users to generate their own content. Just look at how infrequently modern AAA titles launch with modding tools. This internal rift could fundamentally destroy the modding community as it exists today.

And then there is the issue of canon. What is canon in the post-capella era? Honestly, I like it better when this question is unanswered. People get creative when this happens - and they run fantastic what-if scenarios. Except here, those scenarios turn into campaigns.

In my opinion, Blue Planet was the greatest gaming experience I have ever had. Heck, I liked it more than most of my favorite movies and books. I do not believe it is theoretically possible for any developer or studio to turn out an FS3 that is as incredible as Blue Planet - not with the game industry and business itself existing in their present state. It had to come from within the modding community - it could not have been otherwise.

Basically, if FS3 came out, it would inevitably be less cool and awesome than Blue Planet. It probably would be less awesome than MOST of the post-capella campaigns out there. If Volition comes out and says "The official conclusion of the freespace storyline is far less awesome than the stuff dreamed up by the modding community", then it would truly suck. It would be a crippling blow not just to Freespace as a franchise, but for the very art of storytelling itself.

[Jeff Vader]

I would be very disappointed if FS3 hit shelves tomorrow. In fact, I'm pretty sure a large piece of my inner gamer would die.

Why? Imagine what something like that could do to the modding community. Imagine the endless debates among the coders, trying to decide between continuing FS2 open or moving to FS3 open.

Well, considering that it took 3 years for Volition to publish the FS2 source code, I doubt this would be a(n immediate) problem. Mod/campaign development, of course, is a different matter.

[StargateSpankyHam]

Well, considering that it took 3 years for Volition to publish the FS2 source code, I doubt this would be a(n immediate) problem. Mod/campaign development, of course, is a different matter.

Considering that I'm also developing a post-capella mod/campaign...FS3 coming out would be troubling in more ways than one. It would instantly break the immersion of any post-capella era storyline, knowing that volition canon contravenes it.

[headdie]

since when does canon bother this community, lets face it canon contradicts itself nicely already what what's a few alternative scenarios to bother the average player

[StargateSpankyHam]

Virtually all canon contravenes itself eventually.

[Klaustrophobia]

i bet just about everyone has their own personal version of canon they subscribe to.  even if you don't realize it.  there's some V inconsistencies or odd bits you discount as just an error in the game, and some assumptions you make that are never confirmed, or maybe not even discussed at all.  i bet most of you replaced Silent Threat with ST:R.  i know i did.  you're always free to amend your own personal canon.  like command and conquer 4.  it never happened.  the series ended with the scrin preparing a full invasion force cliffhanger.  or the matrix.  it's a great series.  of one movie.

and no one is going to crucify you for daring to release a post-capella mod that disagrees with V canon.  this happened to FS1 campaigns with the release of FS2, and they didn't suddenly become bad.  look at Destiny of Peace.  it started a new war with the vasudans, and is still considered in the top tier of campaigns.  i'm sure there are others like that, but that's the only one i've played.

i guess my point is saying "they shouldn't make it even if they do get the chance, because i might not like it" seems a bit, well, selfish almost.  it only impacts what we have already if we choose for it to. and if that happens, it will probably be because it's so great and we want to move over to it, not just the simple fact it exists.