Author Topic: Colossus what if?  (Read 40951 times)

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Offline CT27

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It's been said here that the Colossus wouldn't survive probably against the UEF.

However, with an upgrade, I think the Colossus would have done okay against the EA in Inferno had it survived FS2.

 

Offline crizza

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Since this is one of my favorite themes...
Refitting the Colossus for torpedowarfare is pretty sweet^^

 
If by 'torpedo' you mean 'Meson bomb with engines' I'm all for. The Big C should fit hundreds inside its armored hull.

It still may not be enough to stop the next Shivan raid, but at least the whole galaxy will see the fireworks if they happen to aim their telescopes in our direction.
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Offline crizza

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Nah, I just fiddled with the Colossus and her missile launchers, with decent torpedos which could attack an enemy at long range...but not enough to destroy round about 80 juggernauts...

 

Offline NeonShivan

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It's been said here that the Colossus wouldn't survive probably against the UEF.

However, with an upgrade, I think the Colossus would have done okay against the EA in Inferno had it survived FS2.

As proven through the WiH campaign itself and my own little experiment. Pre-Capella era ships don't stand a chance against the UEF. With that said, if we faced the UEF instead of the Shivans in Freespace 2. The GTVA probably would of lost.
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Offline General Battuta

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Heeeeeeeelllll naw.

Maybe the one way that could possibly go anywhere but a crushing GTVA victory would be if the NTF brokered a strategic arrangement to use Sol as an ideological and logistical hub. Even so, the UEF navy at the time was even smaller and its ability to operate 'abroad' was just as limited.

 

Offline headdie

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On aspect not looked at in a colossus wielding GTVA vs UEF is the psychological impact of jumping the colly in over Earth as part of the opening gambit of the war, before all other considerations the UEF is looking at a warship that is twice the size of anything in their arsenal and no way of knowing that it is the only one they have.
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Offline CT27

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I'm not saying the Colossus would win against the UEF, but if it did survive FS2 I think the GTVA would have upgraded the Colossus in the time between FS2 and WIH.

 
i'm pretty sure that after the entire pacific war defined itself by air power the survival of one battleship wouldn't have made battleships as a whole any less dinosaur...ic

...why the hell is everyone comparing the Colossus to the Yamato? I just don't understand this parallel at all; they're nothing alike.

In terms of the situation:
1) The Yamato "succumbed" to a massive airstrike, true, but not in the way that everyone here seems to think. The Yamato withered many airstrikes, and it was one of the relative few capital ships that survived the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It was held back at the Japanese home islands for a while, as the IJN knew quite well that, without any carriers or fighter cover, the (still formidable) Japanese surface fleet of battleships and cruisers would just get picked off gradually by wave after wave of bomber attacks. Eventually, the IJN sent the Yamato on a suicide mission anyway, where it ventured out almost alone, and was intercepted by massive waves of bombers--it took a ridiculous number of big hits to kill the Yamato, and that was even after the many hits the Yamato had already suffered from earlier in the war.

2) The Yamato was not some superweapon; in fact, she had a sister ship from almost the beginning. That she never got to truly do what she was designed to do was a combination of bad command decisions, bad luck, and the specific situations of the war. The Battle off Samarr was the only time she really got any chance to really engage in a fleet battle, but those three factors I mentioned resulted in her entire task force's withdrawal just as they were on the cusp of victory--it's a long story, but an amazingly fascinating and epic naval battle (search it on youtube!).

3) The Colossus is NOT A BATTLESHIP, NOR ITS FREESPACE EQUIVALENT. Seriously, the Colossus carries a compliment of 240 spacecraft. That's more than any other ship in the (canon) series. Not even the Hecate carriers come very close (which are about 150+).

4) The Colossus DID demonstrate her worth against two very different types of opponents. She singlehandedly routed the NTF, taking only minimal damage in the process. Against the Shivans, she utterly stomped anything that wasn't a Juggernaut. And when nothing else could stand against that first Sathanas, the Colossus took it on 1v1 and came out well on top (remember, its fighters are part of its capabilities, because it is also a carrier, remember?).


The Colossus, had she survived, would have likely done the following for the GTVA:
1) Saved about 30,000 good officers, crew, and pilots that served aboard her.
2) Been a major morale boost--she had gone up against a Shivan juggernaut and won handily (or so propaganda could easily spin), then demolished a dozen Shivan ships (including a destroyer), survived an ambush by another juggernaut, and evacuated Capella. Her survival would mean that the GTVA could still more than handle anything short of a juggernaut.
3) Helped retain/boost unity between the Terrans and Vasudans (30,000 crew aboard a completely jointly designed and built super-ship? That definitely has an impact).
4) Been a huge deterrent against any kind of rebellion.
5) Served as a powerful "all-around capable" juggernaut, allowing the GTVA to more easily focus on building more shock-jump and "all-forward" armament destroyers.
6) Potentially refit, so that she could then have a much more powerful forward armament.
7) Potentially helpful in aiding the Capellan refugees (either with its huge space for people on board, or by the protection it could offer from both itself directly and its fighters).
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Offline SypheDMar

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If we're bring BP into this again, I don't think so. Durgas can't safely touch Raynors, and Raynor must have less fighter screens than the Colossus.  Supposing that it did survive and get a refit, it'd probably be doing what the Carthage does in BP2 (testing new armor and be surrounded by lots of corvettes and cruisers and stuff).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Durgas can dominate Raynors if the pulse cannons are suppressed.

The Colossus was an awful, awful, awful carrier for reasons the FreeSpace 2 campaign makes fairly obvious. It was a dinosaur of a design that would have been utter dead weight against the Shivans post-Capella.

 

Offline The E

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From my perspective, the Colossus is built as a node assault ship. It's mission is basically to jump into a defended node, beam the crap out of the local defenses, then sit back and secure the thing while the regular fleet drops in.

Problem is that the Shivans, with their Sathanases, are much better at this. And that shivans as a whole seem to lack the ressource constraints the GTVA operates under, and can afford to just throw a bunch of beam cannons on a stick (also known as a Lilith), or one or three of their juggernauts at the problem.
In that kind of environment, building a strategy around a big humongous single point of failure is a stupid move.
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Offline Polpolion

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It was a dinosaur of a design that would have been utter dead weight against the Shivans post-Capella.

This pretty much. The Colossus performed phenomenally against conventional threats - it's downfall was a threat so absurd that they didn't bother to consider it. That said, video game war isn't always fair and in the end it would've been smarter to make more vessels that were similar to the Icene that en-masse could've performed just as well, and probably even better against massive super sathanas threats.

ed: but then again if they did that then FS2 would've been about a magical threat that only affected smaller ships and they'd still be in the same mess
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 04:38:58 pm by Polpolion »

 

Offline CT27

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Since the Colossus presumably has a joint crew of Vasudans and Terrans, the GTVA probably wouldn't have sent it into Sol during the beginning of WIH since that would have meant Vasudans officially joining combat operations at that point.

 

As proven through the WiH campaign itself and my own little experiment. Pre-Capella era ships don't stand a chance against the UEF. With that said, if we faced the UEF instead of the Shivans in Freespace 2. The GTVA probably would of lost.

Whhhhaaaaaaaat?

Pre-Capella era ships (I'm going to assume that means pre-FS2) would lose because they'd have nothing but blob turrets. But come FS2, the GTVA navy is several orders of magnitude more powerful than it was in FS1, even after incorporating shields into its fighters.

If the UEF was invading in FS2 instead of the Shivans, the UEF would have lost handily. Aside from the fact that the UEF fleet would quickly collapse logistically, their personnel have little combat experience, and few of them have experience with any kind of large scale battles/war in general.

There's two ways you can try to fairly compare this:
1) UEF keeps all of its current fighter and ship tech, but no beam jamming (which was thrown together in response to the GTVA invasion, and seemed to only really gain prominence after 18 months of war).
2) UEF get beam jamming, but the rest of its tech is 18 years less advanced (which we'll have to speculate about, or guess).

In (1), GTVA wins thoroughly, but likely takes major casualties in the early stages of the war, mainly in its fighter corps. If the war lasts longer than a short period, then the GTVA will effectively adapt its fighter tactics and take greater advantage of their capital ship superiority. The UEF fighter forces are seriously lacking in terms of mobility--aside from the three Solaris destroyers, none of their ships can carry a decent fighter complement; most operate from local bases in Sol. Ferrying replacements back to the front lines is a risky, lengthy, and complicated process. The UEF will not be able to come up with an effective means of countering beam weapons; it has no AWACS, nor science vessels advanced enough or specialized enough for the task, and converting the few ships up to the task will take significant time. After all, they have to invent the whole process, software, and hardware from scratch. The UEF doesn't have 18 months.

And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.

In (2), assuming the UEF even has any Solaris destroyers at all, you won't be seeing any Kentaroi's or Uriels. The UEF fighters are still a bit superior in many respects, but they can't be fielded in sufficient numbers to turn the tide. Replacements are hard to bring to the front. Logistically, their fighters would cause huge strain on an already logistically problematic situation. UEF ships lack the firepower to truly capitalize on their beam jamming, meaning that ship kills are rare (they usually just retreat). Hecate and Hapshetsut destroyer groups use their massive fighter complements to strike back; UEF fighter forces become outnumbered and whittled down; GTVA replacements and reinforcements are brought up quickly and efficiently--the opposite is the case for the UEF.

TAG missiles are rushed into service, turning the tide. Any ship hit with a TAG missile can be directly and accurately fired upon by all beam cannons (not just slashing ones). Initially tested by the SOC, in which no UEF survivors lived to tell the tale, TAG missiles were first "publicly" used in a huge engagement between the main elements of the UEF and GTVA fleets. Caught completely off-guard, the UEF ships rapidly fall under an onslaught of beam cannons. A general retreat to "their node" is ordered, with a few ships heroically volunteering to screen the retreat, costing them their lives, and buying only moments. However, another GTVA force is waiting for them at the node--they used an AWACS to ensure that none of the UEF ships had warning until they were already jumping in near the node.

Still, the GTVA force blockading the node is clearly not enough to hold against the ravaged, yet still powerful UEF fleet. Then the Colossus shows up, as planned, jumping right into the fight. The UEF personnel present have little time to express their shock, horror, and disbelief as the Colossus opens up with its guns, quickly shredding a trio of ships into ribbons. Many wings of fighters pour from the Colossus' fighter bays.

Another GTVA destroyer jumps in--one of the ones from the first part of the battle, along with several smaller ships supporting it, and some of its fighters. Quickly getting overwhelmed and overrun, some UEF ships jump to random points in the system. As hope is lost, UEF captains quickly begin surrendering. The UEF vessels that fled to other parts of the system are hunted down, ordered to surrender, and if refused, get destroyed by superior firepower and numbers.

Delenda Est delenda est.

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Offline The E

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And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.

Yes. For the Colossus. Given how good UEF ships are at subsystem sniping, the Colly itself can be rather quickly neutralized as a threat. Sure, she'll still have that 1 million hitpoints that the UEF can't really deal with quickly, but her main armament is a lot less threatening.

Also, you are making several assumptions not backed up by anything. One is that beam jamming would be unavailable. Two, that the UEF actually would go on a full on offensive without logistical preparations. Three, that the raw in-game stats as seen in the tables tell the full story.
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Online TrashMan

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I don't think the Colossuss is a dinosaur...It does it's job well.
Shivan beams are just redicolously fast and powerfull.

Sath DPS >> Collie DPS.

If the GTVA had beams that could match shivan ones in Rate of Fire, the sathanas would fare much, MUCH worse. Especially as a blockade buster.
The Sathanas will kill anyting in front of it - but it has far too many blind spots to be trully effective.

You can test this theory, by setting up a nodel blockade of several destroyers, then jump in a sath and collie. Check which will sustain less damage and kill opponents faster.
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Online TrashMan

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And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.

Yes. For the Colossus. Given how good UEF ships are at subsystem sniping, the Colly itself can be rather quickly neutralized as a threat.

Not really..if you think it's that simple to disable and disarm it.... The collie will be protected by a crapton of fighters and lesser warships and his subsystems have a crapton of HP. Not to mention that it has multiple engines, so it can quit the field if things start going south.

Speaking of which the beam jamming always seemed like a silyl concpet to me. How DO you jam a friggin energy beam?
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Offline The E

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This has been discussed several times on the BP board.
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I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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