[Herra Tohtori]

literally every person in europe lives in a hive city four miles across

Obviously you've never been to Finland.

[headdie]

I live in the UK and about 10-15 minutes drive from the centre of the nearest significant town, the bus is half an hour and about 3.80 for a return trip and about an hour 15 walking (i have done this), I am also about half an hour drive from the nearest city outskirts so driving places is just as necessaries in Europe as in the US

[Dragon]

Of course, Poland does have cities. Getting around inside them is somewhat possible, though this is coming from a person living near a city with one of the best public transport systems in Europe (despite the mess Poland usually is, Krakow managed to keep this one working). It still takes about 30 minutes to actually reach the city by the only bus that stops where I live. And of course, it only brings you to the city outskirts, meaning you have to take another bus or a tram to actually get somewhere.

On the other hand, once you try to get from one city to another, you're left with:
a). Driving on a road full of holes, burning really expensive fuel.
b). Taking a rusty, slow, stinky, barely holding together train.
c). If you're lucky, taking a long distance bus and hoping it'll get there in time and won't fall apart when underway.

[pecenipicek]

4$ per gallon.

Seriously?

Around here in Euroland, (specifically, Germany) petrol goes for close to double that amount. I do not know what you are complaining about.

But youguys live in ultracompact cities. So you can afford it.
I know this for a fact. I've talked to the German exchange students.

Most of us don't, actually. Only one of our Dutch cities actually has a metro, for one. There is nothing here that is as compact as, say, New York.

Trams arent all that common either. I mean, ****, only two towns in Croatia have tram's for example.
Most of the other cities are pretty traversable with bicycles. And i quite literally mean it. While i lived in a smaller town for half a year, my bicycle was an essential transportation vehicle. Back in the bigger town now? It would take me 2 hours to get anywhere on a bicycle. Also, good luck avoiding getting hit by cars, pedestrians and general biker unfriendliness.

[The E]

But youguys live in ultracompact cities. So you can afford it.
I know this for a fact. I've talked to the German exchange students.

Define ultracompact.

For the record: The fact that, in any german (and most european) cities, you can get everything you may need on a day-to-day basis from stores located within walking distance from your home is a major factor in us not needing as many or as big cars as you americans.

However, you should also be aware that the reason why America has such low petrol prices is due to heavy government subsidies. In other words, you guys have been living in a state-sponsored bubble for quite some time now. It's really remarkable that it's only starting to burst now.

[SypheDMar]

except in the uber metros like NYC and DC, it's pretty much necessary to drive to get to anything in the US.  we generally don't have the option of decent public transport.

Elaborate please. It sounds counterintuitive.

[Al-Rik]

4$ per gallon.

Seriously?

Around here in Euroland, (specifically, Germany) petrol goes for close to double that amount. I do not know what you are complaining about.

You should mention that most of the price is taxes.
And they should play the national Anthem at the gas stations and print the voucher for the fuel on black-red-gold paper, because buying fuel helps funding the state

ARAL has a nice calculator for the taxes:
http://www.aral.de/aral/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9013265&contentId=7025891

A gallon is around 3,78 Liters, Super is normal gasoline with an octane value of 95, the E5-E10 means that 5 or 10% are ethanol, ultimate is a brand from ARAL with High End fuel that nobody really needs.
The first row in the red field is for the taxes.
As comparison, Mc Donalds price for a cheeseburger is 1 €uro and the monthly rent for a small flat with 2 rooms is around 250 - 350 €uro.

[Klaustrophobia]

For the record: The fact that, in any german (and most european) cities, you can get everything you may need on a day-to-day basis from stores located within walking distance from your home is a major factor in us not needing as many or as big cars as you americans.

However, you should also be aware that the reason why America has such low petrol prices is due to heavy government subsidies. In other words, you guys have been living in a state-sponsored bubble for quite some time now. It's really remarkable that it's only starting to burst now.

what i find remarkable is the fact that subsidies have continued while oil companies post skyrocketing profits.  to me, that amounts to my tax money being simply given to oil companies. 

[Klaustrophobia]

except in the uber metros like NYC and DC, it's pretty much necessary to drive to get to anything in the US.  we generally don't have the option of decent public transport.

Elaborate please. It sounds counterintuitive.

urban sprawl.  very few cities or towns are laid out in a way that is conducive to walking to your destination.  "downtown" areas of corporate centers and entertainment, with the rest of the "city" (the residential areas) in a sprawled out suburbia.  you want to go to the store, you drive.  to get to work/school, you drive.  to go out at night/weekend, you drive.  what public transport there is is mostly designed around getting workers from the suburbs to downtown for work, and isn't good for a hell of a lot else.  and most users have to drive or have someone drop them off at one of a few central points to use it.

when i was in the UK for a week, all the cities and towns i saw were designed that once you were there, you could pretty much walk around to wherever you needed to go.  and public transport was a realistic option for getting from town to town.

[FlamingCobra]

But youguys live in ultracompact cities. So you can afford it.
I know this for a fact. I've talked to the German exchange students.

Define ultracompact.

For the record: The fact that, in any german (and most european) cities, you can get everything you may need on a day-to-day basis from stores located within walking distance from your home is a major factor in us not needing as many or as big cars as you americans.

However, you should also be aware that the reason why America has such low petrol prices is due to heavy government subsidies. In other words, you guys have been living in a state-sponsored bubble for quite some time now. It's really remarkable that it's only starting to burst now.

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh Klaus said everything I needed to say.

[The E]

One important part to note: european cities are not designed. They've grown organically.

[Mars]

However, you should also be aware that the reason why America has such low petrol prices is due to heavy government subsidies. In other words, you guys have been living in a state-sponsored bubble for quite some time now. It's really remarkable that it's only starting to burst now.

Just the other day I heard a guy complaining about the "tax" on gasoline in the local "gas" station. Cracked me up.

[T-LoW]

One important part to note: european cities are not designed. They've grown organically.

Ah, not at all. We in germany have some designed cities. Even Wiesbaden counts as a designed city because of its city rings
But overall, yes. Grown like a tumor.

[deathfun]

Has anyone ever consider biking? I mean, sure, if you're in a hilly area it's not great... but if it's flat it's perfect
Cuts that hour and fifteen minute walk by at least half, most likely more

[headdie]

Has anyone ever consider biking? I mean, sure, if you're in a hilly area it's not great... but if it's flat it's perfect
Cuts that hour and fifteen minute walk by at least half, most likely more

Biking is cool and i do use it some times to get about but there are 3 steep long hills between my house and town and the UK isnt the most bike friendly country in the world, there are worse but you just dont expect a cyclist around here and many drivers dont care about cyclists except for the inconvenience, and having been run off the road a few times by articulating lorries I chose my journeys too only ones where there are cycle lanes or off road routes for the most of it.

[Mika]

Yep. Its up to 1,80 euros per liter here in the Netherlands.

Whoa whoa whoa

There's a country in the Euroet Union that has more expensive gas than we have here in Finland? Congratulations, how did you guys manage that? What sort of gas is that, 98E5?

And doesn't this lead to a huge race of drivers going to Germany, filling their thanks with slightly cheaper gas (~1.61 €/lite IIRC), further increasing the prices in the Netherlands?

I envy those Eastern Finns who live close to Russian border and have the permission to cross the border: gas at 1.05 €/liter and no "green" ethanol injected to it.

When I was a child, about 9 years old, I remember when fuel was about 5 Finnish marks per liter, equalling 0.80 €/liter nowadays. Back then people complained that it is expensive. But I recall as well that it was considerably cheaper in Central Europe. How did you manage to catch us up?

[BlueFlames]

Seriously. My wallet screams every time I go to the pump.

...

I went to the mountains and burned half a tank of fuel (and a nontrivial amount of tread from the tires) today.  At $4.00 per gallon for petrol (and it's actually running about $3.54/gallon here), that would run me $26.00, which is two hours' and ten minutes' wage at my current job.  Seems a fair trade for a weekend outing.  Without the trip to the mountains, I burn that much petrol over the course of two weeks doing normal commuting and errands.

My parents were in the UK recently and after accounting for exchange rate and unit conversions, petrol worked out to about $10.00 per gallon.  At that rate, today's outing (or two weeks of normal commuting) would have run me $65.00, or five hours' and twenty-five minutes' wage.  I might not so casually drop that on a trip to the mountains, but it's still a pretty affordable rate for commuting.

Comparing notes with some of my SUV-driving coworkers, petrol prices would have to get to about $20.00 per gallon, before I have to drop as much money down the tank as they do at $4.00 per gallon.  That's the point where I'd start to feel the hurt too.  Once you crack a day's wage on two weeks of transit costs, life can get pretty uncomfortable.

I've been having this conversation offline too, and I always feel like I'm stating the obvious:  Americans, goaded by salespersons and marketing, think of the most extreme situation in which they can imagine themselves taking a vehicle, and they buy the vehicle for that situation.  My own father almost bought a full-sized SUV himself because he thought it'd be great for a vacation to Colorado that he might take maybe four or five times in the life of the vehicle.  Instead, he realized that the vehicle he was buying would be used 95% of the time (or more) by my mother for the grocery run and trips to neighboring towns within thirty miles, so he bought a reasonably-sized sedan.  I could have bought a four-wheel-drive beast myself, reasoning that sometimes I leave the beaten path and trek up the gravel logging roads in the area, but I knew that 95% of the time (or more), my car would be getting used for highway commuting with no passengers and little cargo, so I bought a compact.  Because my parents and I bought vehicles for the circumstances we encounter nearly all the time, instead of the most extreme circumstances we could picture, we can go to the pump with fuel prices at $4.00 per gallon, and it doesn't hurt.  We'll be able to go to the pumps with prices at $10.00 per gallon, and it's not going to hurt.

Anyway, try these, in order:

A)  Drive with a lighter foot.  Don't apply more than one-third throttle during acceleration (except in emergency maneuvers, naturally) and don't surpass 55mph.  That's the speed at which most consumer internal combustion engines are most fuel-efficient, and the difference in fuel economy between 55mph and 65mph is significant.

B)  Forego the car, when possible.  No, American cities and suburbs are not particularly pedestrian- or cyclist-friendly, but grab a map, and you're sure to find some back-roads that are light in traffic or equipped with sidewalks/wide shoulders.  Hell, there might even be some greenways in your area that you haven't found, because you haven't looked.

C)  Find a better job.  I'm grossing less than $25,000 per year, planting me pretty firmly in the lower tax bracket, and I can still casually burn half a tank of fuel on a weekend excursion at current fuel prices.  If you're having a hard time keeping up with transit expenses, you should probably be looking for better employment anyway.

D)  Buy a more appropriate car for your needs.  If your commute doesn't involve a large, unavoidable off-road stretch, then you shouldn't be driving an SUV.  If you aren't hauling/towing large loads on a regular basis, then you don't need a pick-up truck.  If you don't regularly have to exceed 120mph, then you don't need a sport/muscle car.  If you buy a compact/mid-size hatchback or sedan, you will enjoy greater fuel economy, improved safety, and on account of the reduced weight of the vehicle (as compared to trucks/SUVs) better acceleration and handling characteristics.

E)  Whine about transit costs on the internet, and remain completely impotent as fuel prices creep higher in the coming years and decades.

E)  Lobby your local government to invest in better public transit and pedestrian-friendly infrastructure.  Just don't go bat**** if it winds up requiring a tax increase, because it's your fuel cost that those tax dollars will be helping to keep down.

[Dragon]

The problem is, sometimes a small car isn't really an option. I have a large family (6 people+a cattery) and live in a backwater. Until recently, we used a Ford Windstar for "grocery" trips (in fact, it involved a trip to a warehouse and nearly filling up the car with enough goods to supply a small store) and to ferry the whole family around. It was a very comfortable, good car with an enormous engine and large tires which was capable of handling Polish roads and even driving comfortably on them. And as far as the interior goes, it was a limousine by Polish standards. Unfortunately, gas prices rose and the good, old Windstar broke down, and spare parts aren't easy to come by.
Now we use smaller cars, which is somewhat uncomfortable. A Volvo we have is capable of taking the entire load we're packing into it after a trip to the warehouse, but barely (you should see things my father done to get everything loaded), and the handling goes to hell with such a heavy cargo. Oh, and unloading it is a chore due to everything being tightly packed and large packs stuffed into awkward places. And for family trips, we use two cars (including the Windstar, we currently have four, but all of them old and frequently breaking down), hoping they're in working order and won't break down while underway (which happens sometimes).
As for economic driving, the speed limit on most roads in Poland is 50 kph (about 30 mph) and it's usually not a good idea to drive faster due to poor quality of the roads. 80 kph (around 50mph) is what we use when possible, but that's rarely the case (usually on high speed roads).

[Mongoose]

Wow...I'm amazed to hear someone consider a Windstar a good vehicle.  I hated the ones our family had back in the day.

My parents are currently leasing a Ford Explorer from a couple of years ago, which is our second in a row.  Honestly, a smaller car than that would not work for us: I have two younger brothers in college several hours away, and they need that space to haul stuff back and forth.  And really, you can't comfortably squeeze five or six adults into something much smaller.  My dad was thinking about buying this particular car when the lease was up, but Ford switched the Explorer to more of a car chassis the model year or two after ours, so he might reconsider.  We try to use my mom's Buick and my little putt-putt Escort as much as possible to save costs, but sometimes, you just need the big car.

[Bobboau]

for fun I just calculated that $4/gal == 0.67GBP/liters, or 0.8euro/liters. (I'm assuming you people over there use liters for measuring gas)