[MatthTheGeek]

You know what ? Go ahead, get rid of the struts. This is going to be an excellent way to motivate myself to actually learn to model so I can fix the horror you're going to come up with. I've thought of several cool ideas about how to deal with that area of the ship.

[Black Wolf]

You know what ? Go ahead, get rid of the struts. This is going to be an excellent way to motivate myself to actually learn to model so I can fix the horror you're going to come up with. I've thought of several cool ideas about how to deal with that area of the ship.

I've wanted to do this for a long time.

Haters gonna hate.

[Aesaar]

Hey, I love the appearance of the Raynor.  I'm not going to make massive changes that will turn it into something else.  However, I don't see those big gaps as a hugely important part of the design.  If I can replace them with a good looking alternative that gets rid of the gaps, I will.  If I can't, then I'll settle for beefing the struts up a bit.

If you've got ideas for that, please, share them.  I'm open to suggestions.  Doesn't necessarily mean I'll use them, but it's always good to get fresh perspectives.

And great, I've hijacked this thread.  Any thoughts on the Raynor's appearance should go in the model update thread.  Someone respond to my complaints about the SBlues or something.

Back on topic: the Raynor's torpedoes are much more impressive if you look at the 8-tube launcher and decide the Eos should Swarm 4.  It doesn't throw out torps like a Solaris, but it's still 24 per volley.

[MatthTheGeek]

Will do suggestions this evening when I'm on my comp and actually have pics to base myself on.

[Droid803]

It better still look like a Vulture bike, or the name would no longer make sense

[SaltyWaffles]

You make it sound easy. Obviously we're talking about decades of subspace research before the GTVA managed to do that. Not only there's very little chances the UEF will ever get their hands on this technology before the end of the war, but there's even less chances they'll manage to build and deploy enough of those to make even a marginally significant difference in the outcome of what's left of the war.

Decades of research? According to whom? If by "research", you mean "doing stuff with subspace", then so has the UEF. And the UEF built a freaking intrasystem subspace gate network that any ship--even ones without subspace drives--can easily use. Even warheads and cargo can be sent through.

The UEF has its own AWACS and advanced science vessel ships, so that's mostly covered.

UEF has more advanced torpedo weapons (aside from SSM's) and a metric f***ton of them. They're also diverse and somewhat modular/variable.

The UEF got its hands on SSM's, TAG missiles, Auroras, and more of the GTVA's stuff at the beginning of the war, from the defecting GTL ship.

Small-scale subspace drives (on that level) have already been "mastered", if the Uhlan is any indication.

Strategically and logistically, it is a highly effective/efficient tool for both defensive and offensive operations. It also makes for a great deterrent.

Game stats are irrelevant. If you don't take into account adaptive armor and ECM, you're missing a huge chunk of the capabilities of a warship.

My bad on the special abilities part; forgot about it. Still, I can't remember a time when any of those abilities were actually used--and why wouldn't a Titan have adaptive armor?

The Hyperion is, in effect, not as good as the Aeolus for its intended role of anti-fighter escort. They also don't have many of those, especially since the Aeolus production lines reopened. Plus what's been said above.

Right, but it just seems odd--the Aeolus is a great cruiser, but the Hyperion is better in an anti-ship/installation role, and its Sblue's do significant damage to UEF ships from a good range---combine that with great subspace maneuverability and the effectiveness of its PDT's against torpedoes, and you've got an effective asset. Two Hyperions and a Deimos performing a shock-jump attack on a Karuna would be brutal, especially if backed up by some strike craft. It's cruiser-level shock-jump capability and torpedo intercept. You're right on the Aeolus, though; it's a nightmare to attack with strike craft.

It's less about it being bothering than about you making many unjustifiable assumptions and not reading enough lore.

Unless I'm missing something, I've read all the lore (several times in most cases). As for unjustifiable assumptions...I'm well aware of and perfectly fine with the possibility of me being wrong (in either speculation or certain events/lines in-game); this is what I think is the case, and if I'm wrong/proven wrong, I will be glad to have been corrected and gain a better understanding in the process.

[An4ximandros]

The problem with SSM strikes is that it's already decided SSMs are GTVA exclusive in order to not make the UEF & GTVA gameplay mirrors.

A way to work around that would be some sort of missile cruiser getting thrown in by a gate, then said ship unloads it's payload and then jumps out. This is not done simply because the UEF have super bombers (for lack of a better term) that can pretty much do this (without a gate) but are not seen on RC1.

[MatthTheGeek]

Game stats are irrelevant. If you don't take into account adaptive armor and ECM, you're missing a huge chunk of the capabilities of a warship.

My bad on the special abilities part; forgot about it. Still, I can't remember a time when any of those abilities were actually used--and why wouldn't a Titan have adaptive armor?

Let me drop a hint : they're used in about every single mission in WiH.
Also, I never said the Titan wouldn't have one. However, there's nothing saying they would have the same kind, level or effectiveness of armor or ECM. There's also nothing saying that one Raynor will have the same armor or ECM capabilities than another, same for Titans or any ship class in the UEF and GTVA. It's all up to the mission designer.

The Hyperion is, in effect, not as good as the Aeolus for its intended role of anti-fighter escort. They also don't have many of those, especially since the Aeolus production lines reopened. Plus what's been said above.

Right, but it just seems odd--the Aeolus is a great cruiser, but the Hyperion is better in an anti-ship/installation role, and its Sblue's do significant damage to UEF ships from a good range---combine that with great subspace maneuverability and the effectiveness of its PDT's against torpedoes, and you've got an effective asset. Two Hyperions and a Deimos performing a shock-jump attack on a Karuna would be brutal, especially if backed up by some strike craft. It's cruiser-level shock-jump capability and torpedo intercept. You're right on the Aeolus, though; it's a nightmare to attack with strike craft.

You overestimate the SBlue by a huge margin. It still has less than a third of the sustained damage of a TerSlash and four times the recharge delay, and the TerSlash is the weaker of the "serious" beams. It is a buffed up SGreen, which is like saying the PromR is a buffed up ML-16. One is better than the others, but both s*ck hairy balls.

Just to make sure I'm getting my point across : a pair of Prometheus S does 154.2 DPS. A SBlue does 110 DPS. So, a Hercules with a quad bank of PromS does more damage than the two SBlues of the Hyperion, minus the huge flag.

[Aesaar]

SaltyWaffles: What makes you think UEF torpedoes are more advanced than GTVA ones?  Yes, the Eos is slower, but it's also subspace-capable, which I imagine cuts into fuel and engine space, and either stronger (than the Karuna version) or smaller (than the Solaris and Narayana versions).  The Supernova is also significantly more powerful than any Apocalypse (approaching Helios/Sledgehammer damage), and might be subspace-capable as well.  Seems to me GTVA torps are the more advanced ones.

UEF launchers, on the other hand, are quicker at loading and firing, though I maintain that the multiple tubes of the GTVA launcher should make their torps fire in bursts.

There's also no guarantee that the Solace was carrying any TAG-Cs.  For all we know, they've only recently entered service, which might explain why so few Tev fighters are capable of carrying them.  The Nyx and the Aurora are the only ones that can, IIRC.

The UEF might not have the understanding of subspace required to build an SSM.  Sure, they built intrasystem gates, but the GTVA's been building one giant intersystem gate for the past 18 years (something not even the Shivans seem to know how to do).  I expect the research required for that hugely boosted their knowledge of subspace physics.  Not to mention the data they gathered from the Knossos.  I think it's fairly well established that the GTVA has a greater understanding of subspace than the UEF does.


The SBlue is twice as strong as the SGreen, which isn't saying much.  The TerPulse has four times the sustained DPS (455), but less than half the range.  A TerPulse turret has two of them.  Hell, even the Maxim outdamages the SBlue (173.42).  The 6km range is pretty much the only thing that recommends it.

[-Norbert-]

The UEF got its hands on SSM's, TAG missiles, Auroras, and more of the GTVA's stuff at the beginning of the war, from the defecting GTL ship.

Not necessarily.
Considering how the mission of the 14th battlegroup was supposed to work out, I wouldn't be surprised if the packed more usefull stuff in those GTLs than subspace missiles (for example ammunition for planetary bombardment, if only to make the threat appear credible if the ships are scanned).
Besides we only really know for sure that SSMs are used 18 month into the war, so it is even possible that the SSM project was still in development (and thus not even in the GTLs databases), when the 14th BG was launched through the gate.
For all we know the GTVA might have used SSM strikes only for one week before WiH began.

[Sciguy]

To be fair, I don't recall seeing very many of any kind of GTVA cruisers in mission.  If they did show up they were instagibbed by the Karunas that you always seem to fly with so I didn't even notice them.  They are in system but they are probably off doing convoy escorts far away from the front line fleet engagements that Laporte seems to find herself in.

The real problem with the Hyperion is that it tries to be a jack-of-all-trades.  Cruisers just aren't big enough (power output, ammo storage, armor, etc.) to pull that off.  An effective cruiser is one that is designed around one role and absolutely excels at it but is near useless against other targets.  The Aeolus is hell on (ion engines?) for any strike craft unlucky enough to get within range but if a real ship shows up it is toast unless it runs due to Cruisers low armor.  The Hyperion cuts out some anti strike craft weapons and replaces them with ineffective anti-capship weapons reducing its anti fighter threat and not really improving its ability to fight capships.  At best its a convoy raider/escort that should work with a fighter escort (which the Aeolus would be better at) and at worst it is the capship equivalent of cannon fodder (a condition that plagues all cruisers).

Actually, now that I think about it, cruisers in general just aren't big or well armored enough to fight heavy capships on their own.  Any ship large enough to chase off a cruiser is probably too big for cruiser mounted guns to deal with.  Even if you made a cruiser that was just a single big gun with engines (think Homeworld ion cannon frigate) it would still lack the armor to fight corvettes and its point defenses would be garbage.  By the time you rectified its deficiencies, to make a ship that is survivable, you would end up with a corvette like the Chimera.

[MatthTheGeek]

Corvettes like the Deimos are explicitely stated to have taken the tactical space previously occupied by cruisers during the 14-years war and the Great War. The tactical niche now reserved to cruisers is becoming increasingly small, relegated to convoy escort, patrol duties and anti-fighter battlegroup support.

Their niche is being gradually consumed by corvettes on the top side and gunboats such as the Cretheus and the Custos on the bottom side, the first being more powerful, durable and effective at what they do, and the second being cheaper, easier to deploy, more agile and more expendable.

Even if you made a cruiser that was just a single big gun with engines (think Homeworld ion cannon frigate) it would still lack the armor to fight corvettes and its point defenses would be garbage.

The Lilith says hi. Although her point defenses are garbage, she's terrifingly effective at what she does. Then again, Shivans play in a whole different league when it comes to beam cannons.

[NeonShivan]

The UEF might not have the understanding of subspace required to build an SSM.

On the top of what Aessar said, the knowledge on subspace required to make a SSM would be on the level of Shivans or higher. Although the UEF have the significant resources to produce the missiles and subspace drives they don't have the significant knowledge to develop minaturized subspace drives to stick in their missiles.

As for the Raynor. Agreeing with what others have stated before me, its a Command Destroyer and is not ment for front line solo duties. Its like a Nimitz Supercarrier in the US Navy, without a fleet the Carrier is useless and illsuited for front line duties.

As for the Hyperion, it has been used numerious times throughout War in Heaven. Although the Hyperion is more of an assault cruiser then escort cruiser. Meaning that it can't phase out any Second Shivan Incursion era cruisers.

[An4ximandros]

Where does it say the UEF don't have the knowledge for making subspace missiles?

By simple logic they do, just attach a fighter subspace drive to an Apocalypse and there you have it.

Now the fact they don't use SSMs may lie on them simply not being cost effective for the Feds (and the Elder's semi anti-war policy.)

[QuakeIV]

I think that pretty well describes it.  They have fighters that can jump through subspace.  They have warheads.  Weld one onto the other and you have a missile of some effectiveness.  Its obviously theoretically possible and they can probably do better than that.

[crizza]

Well, so using a TAG missile to pinpoint the thing you hit and then a thruster the size of those of the Ursa delivers not just one, but a dozen torpedos through subspace^^

[The E]

On the top of what Aessar said, the knowledge on subspace required to make a SSM would be on the level of Shivans or higher. Although the UEF have the significant resources to produce the missiles and subspace drives they don't have the significant knowledge to develop minaturized subspace drives to stick in their missiles.

lolno. You're just plain wrong there.

To elaborate: The knowledge necessary to produce viable SSMs (viable meaning at a high but not too high cost, with sufficient tactical flexibility) is far below that which the Shivans possess. This will become clear in the second part of WiH.

[An4ximandros]

Calling it now, missle Sathanas Juggernaut refit, weapons are missile launchers and AAAs, the claws get replaced by giant missile silos capable of launching hundreds of warheads at a time.

[QuakeIV]

PART TWO HAS SHEEVANS OMG 

More seriously though thats kinda good to know because SSM's seem like rather simple things to me.

[NGTM-1R]

PART TWO HAS SHEEVANS OMG 

The E says many things.

Some of them are even true.