[Oddgrim]

Screw these normal maps. They're gone.

YOUAREDOINGITWRONG

No srsly, you probably made something in the wrong order... post you model/maps if you want us to have a look.

Agree, let us see what the issue is.. Mirroring is a perfectly legit way of modeling, it makes things loads easier and allows you to increase map detail without adding more maps. (but I guess you know that aleardy c: )

[Droid803]

Screw these normal maps. They're gone.

YOUAREDOINGITWRONG

No srsly, you probably made something in the wrong order... post your model/maps if you want us to have a look.

The two examples I linked in the first post are the ones I'm trying to fix, and they're released models. (The Baikal is in DE, and the AKF Eitr is the Askaeldians thread) so of course...

Eitr http://www.mediafire.com/?7ziy3uysczgll5f
Baikal http://www.mediafire.com/?44l4q04qsm087zl

there is another option to make things simpler.

dont ****ing mirror ****! in fact dont share uv space at all. sure its a texture space whore but you can always step up the texture size. i think my video memory has quadrupled since last time i drew a huge texture. you can also apply more graffiti, hawt chick on the nose, pilots name on both sides of the canopy, rescue strips, asymmetric dirt, the list goes on. it also opens the door to exotic features, like better lightmaps, really good normal maps, and other as of yet unforeseen features (like scorch maps).

That doesn't make anything simpler because that means it takes more time to UV map. Meaning I'm not going to do it. It takes freaking long enough as it is and I'm not exactly made of free time.

Edit: Here's an idea I used with my massive wc2 starbase: since I have to use a ton of uvspace overlap, I disconnect each piece from each other.  Now if I left it as is, the results would look rather unflatterning with the smoothing being cut off.  Instead I added raised bevel lines as borders. 

This is something I'm willing to try.

[Nuke]

there is another option to make things simpler.

dont ****ing mirror ****! in fact dont share uv space at all. sure its a texture space whore but you can always step up the texture size. i think my video memory has quadrupled since last time i drew a huge texture. you can also apply more graffiti, hawt chick on the nose, pilots name on both sides of the canopy, rescue strips, asymmetric dirt, the list goes on. it also opens the door to exotic features, like better lightmaps, really good normal maps, and other as of yet unforeseen features (like scorch maps).

Mirroring/symmetry is ok as long as you do a final uvmap AFTER the modifier.  Oh and if the symmetric sides don't actually connect your all good for sharing uv space.
Edit: Here's an idea I used with my massive wc2 starbase: since I have to use a ton of uvspace overlap, I disconnect each piece from each other.  Now if I left it as is, the results would look rather unflatterning with the smoothing being cut off.  Instead I added raised bevel lines as borders. 

Look at the bottom saucer section
-snip-
Each one opf those sections is sharing the uv map space, but since none are actually connected the normal map problem shouldn't occur

the other think i should have mentioned is that if you are generating your normal map from a high poly mesh, it really helps to not share uv space. you can get away with it in some instances. my htl seker does this for its nacelles, which are essentially the same model in the same orientation with no mirroring at all. still to generate the normal map for this section, i had to take the whole thing and separate it from the model, then generate its normal map, and then composite the thing into the normal map generated for the rest of the ship. it was crude but effective.

the as of yet incomplete htl vulture has a similar set up, having 4 identical nacelles in slightly different orientations. it should work, they are symmetrical and dont need to be mirrored and the normals are in tangent space. i may mirror its large wings, cause that is a lot of space being taken up, but the fuselage will not be mirrored, as doing so will take away texturing options as mentioned in my previous post.

there is another option to make things simpler.

dont ****ing mirror ****! in fact dont share uv space at all. sure its a texture space whore but you can always step up the texture size. i think my video memory has quadrupled since last time i drew a huge texture. you can also apply more graffiti, hawt chick on the nose, pilots name on both sides of the canopy, rescue strips, asymmetric dirt, the list goes on. it also opens the door to exotic features, like better lightmaps, really good normal maps, and other as of yet unforeseen features (like scorch maps).

That doesn't make anything simpler because that means it takes more time to UV map. Meaning I'm not going to do it. It takes freaking long enough as it is and I'm not exactly made of free time.

you can really piss away a lot of time looking for shortcuts too. sometimes its better just to do the work, and get fast at it. but the general rule of thumb is the more time you dump on a model the better it will be.

[Scooby_Doo]

The two examples I linked in the first post are the ones I'm trying to fix, and they're released models. (The Baikal is in DE, and the AKF Eitr is the Askaeldians thread) so of course...

Eitr http://www.mediafire.com/?7ziy3uysczgll5f
Baikal http://www.mediafire.com/?44l4q04qsm087zl

Oh man, I see what you mean, the Eitr has tons of symmetry, not sure if there's an easy way to fix that.

The cap ship isn't has bad.  The quickest ad-hock method there would be to detach any piece where the two symmetric sides come in contact (the top, front, back and bottom, but not the sides) and remap those.  Since it has sharp unsmoothed edges,  having them be seperate subobjects in max wouldn't be noticeable.  Unfortunately there's still quite a bit to do there too.

[Col. Fishguts]

I had a look at the Eitr... and sweet raptor jesus does it use excessive mirroring in UV space    The problem is that even most of the flat rectangular pieces are not simply quads, but instead are split in half and then are mirrored unto themselves in UV space. This gives the normal shader a really hard time. I'm not even sure the shader can handle that type of UV mapping in any correct way?

I agree with Scooby, that there's probably no quick-fix for that one, only re-UVing the offending pieces will allow the use of normal maps.

[Nuke]

another technique i use is to have dividing geometry between mirrored sections. something thats not mirrored but takes up relatively little space in the uv map. like a fusalage or a keel. just to prevent the mirrored sections from sharing a seam.

[Scooby_Doo]

another technique i use is to have dividing geometry between mirrored sections. something thats not mirrored but takes up relatively little space in the uv map. like a fusalage or a keel. just to prevent the mirrored sections from sharing a seam.

Yup, like my starbase...

[esarai]

Your link on the first page is broken, so I'm not sure if this is the same issue, but I get giant normal splices down the midlines of my ships quite a bit.  I haven't fully explored this, but I notice that the hard edge disappears somewhat if the background color is similar to the hull color.  Given this, I believe that if you have a massively different background color from the hull color, the change in the rgb values is enough for it to attempt and render a beveled edge there.  So I suggest expanding the border on the UV faces that share an edge with the mirror axis to prevent the seam from appearing.  Continue the texture over the edge, so that even though it won't be drawn, no apparent change appears to the normal map and it renders it flattened out.  Like I said, not sure if this is the right thing or me missing the point entirely due to a missing image, but worth a shot.

[Droid803]

Your link on the first page is broken...

turn off censoring its censoring the URL, but I'll try that!

EDIT: Didn't seem to get rid of it, but it might have lessened it a bit...can't tell for sure.

[Water]

Have a look at your normal map, the blue version.

Use the eyedropper to check the levels of the plain blue parts. It should be red 127 green 127 and blue 255. Values different from these indicate a slope and may be causing you to chase the wrong thing.
If you could double check, I measured r154 g154 b255, but that was with a reconverted file.

[Droid803]

Er...Blue?
I have one that's pinkish and the other is grey...

[Scooby_Doo]

Have a look at your normal map, the blue version.

Use the eyedropper to check the levels of the plain blue parts. It should be red 127 green 127 and blue 255. Values different from these indicate a slope and may be causing you to chase the wrong thing.
If you could double check, I measured r154 g154 b255, but that was with a reconverted file.

Symmetry issue would still be there.

[Water]

Er...Blue?
I have one that's pinkish and the other is grey...

Then you have a slight problem.

The normal map was badly made in photoshop.  In the normal texture each of the UV islands has a seam running around it that should not be there. This is mostly what you have a problem with, showing visible seams that are present in the normal map.

Also the base colour is off by 10% telling FS that a surface is sloped when in actual fact it should be treated as flat by the shader. This one is noticeable when you have a mirrored uv's side by side. One face will be lighter and the other darker.

Edit: I only checked the Etir

[Col. Fishguts]

Water is correct, there's definitely something wrong with your normal map, did you by chance auto-generate it from the diffuse map? If yes, then the black borders around the UV islands are to blame, since they translate to maximum recessed areas.

I made a quick&dirty new normal map (attached) using the diffuse map with a gray background and vastly reduced contrast to get a roughly uniform normal map. Then I re-UVed one of the arms and aligned the pieces exactly with the other 2 arms (but didn't weld the vertices in the UV editor). This results in correct behavior of the normal shader on that arm (see attached screenshot). I tried the same on the cockpit area, but it worked only partially, not sure why.

So, first get your normal map in order, then you can start sorting out the offending parts in the UV editor by remapping them and stacking without welding them together.



[attachment deleted by a ninja]

[Droid803]

Ah, so I just have to re-UV them, but keep them stacked? okay.
Thanks

EDIT: WOot it works. The trick is to offset the UVs by a...less than 1 pixel shift, and then suddenly it's fine, even though nothing really changed (wtf?) Got it enough to make it look acceptable

[Droid803]

Alright, this is a double post but just to show that it works, I figure it's worth the bump and update.

For anyone who wants proof it works:

Before:


After:


Thanks
Didn't even need to touch the textures for this one.

"De-mirroring" the Eitr went the same way, after using the new normal map.
Guess I know how to fix the mirroring thing now, and have a perfect excuse to never do anything.

Apparently nudging the UV island 1/10th of a pixel is enough to trick the shader or something. I don't know if that even makes any sense at all but i'm not complaining.

[Legate Damar]

You first picture link isn't working

[pecenipicek]

there's a reason its usually reccomended to have a nice decent space around the uv-map, specifically to avoid this sort of thing, since the UV map's dimensions stay the same, and you cannot map its coordinates 1 to 1 to the texture, since they are in float space (0...1 with however many decimals the format of the model wants)

you can get away with a 1-3 pixel border around the uvmap with diffuse maps and such, not so with normalmaps, especially, the smaller the texture gets.

[jr2]

Should this get a sticky (is it a common problem)?

[Droid803]

You first picture link isn't working

turn off censoring

Should this get a sticky (is it a common problem)?

No. (There are way to many goddamn stickies in this board already)