Author Topic: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate  (Read 17768 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
My weapon of choice?  That would probably be power brokering and loan sharking, done on a galactic scale.  That way, if a war starts, both sides will have to come to me if they want cash for weapons and ships.  ;7

If some star nation or other refuses to be in debt to me, then I pull a few strings to get that nation attacked by a different nation.  Then the defeated nation has to loan money from me in order to rebuild!

Best part is that I will be enjoying my private terraformed vacation planet the whole time.  War is a racket.  :pimp:
I have to wonder if you've seen/read Legend of the Galactic Heroes, since that sounds remarkably like a certain awesome character in it. :D

 

Offline Rodo

  • Custom tittle
  • 212
  • stargazer
    • Steam
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
I would go Kinetic, energy can be used for other interesting things aboard the ship like powering radar/ecm/othertechnicalflufffromthefuture.
I guess.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Alex Heartnet

  • 28
  • Loli with a hammer
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
I would go Kinetic, energy can be used for other interesting things aboard the ship like powering radar/ecm/othertechnicalflufffromthefuture.
I guess.

If you have capacitors-from-the-future installed, you will be able to power your energy weapons even if your reactor doesn't have enough power for all of your ship's systems (at least until your ship's power cells run dry or take a hit).  Even failing that, you can just divert all power to guns.

  

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
slugs of antimatter.  kinetic energy AND it annihilates into pure energy. 
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
slugs of antimatter.  kinetic energy AND it annihilates into pure energy. 

Only if it's the anti-material-of-other-dude's-hull.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Alex Heartnet

  • 28
  • Loli with a hammer
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
slugs of antimatter.  kinetic energy AND it annihilates into pure energy. 

Antimatter is exceedingly volatile.  Do you want to risk a containment breach from a lucky laser shot?  Think about what a containment breach might do to OTHER ships flying in formation with you, let alone your own ship.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:10:28 am by Alex Heartnet »

 

Offline watsisname

Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Positron beams? :shrug: 
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline deathfun

  • 210
  • Hey man. Peace. *Car hits them* Frakking hippies
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate

You have no specific enemies but if you wish to make up an enemy then go ahead.

This forum post is to see what is your personal favorite type of weapon, kinetic or energy. So its basically like saying which do u like more a Mass Driver or a BGreen.

My favourite type of weapon is the one most effective against that of which I am shooting

"No"

 

Offline Alex Heartnet

  • 28
  • Loli with a hammer
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
All of this kinda assumes that both sides are physical entities.  Combat dynamics suddenly change when dealing with stuff like energy beings, remote viewing, nanotechnology, mind control, the sort of stuff that puts the FICTION back in science fiction.

Nanotechnology alone would greatly alter both society and warfare.  One one hand, it is capable of wondrous things.  Free food, free clothes, sublime health care, pollution cleanup, the list goes on.

On the other hand, nano-disassemblers could prove to be an absolutely terrifying weapon the likes of which have never been seen since the atom bomb.  Everything is equally vulnerable - people, cities, nations, governments.  (Just using it for technobabble is a complete and total waste of its potential)

Imagine a mothership that mines out entire planets and converts them into tools of peace or war.  A practically unlimited supply of warships, equipped with nanotech-tipped weapons.  So-called "Culture Stones", that can colonize distant planets through nanotechnology creation, without the need for on-board life support or, indeed, any of the usual problems associated with deep-space travel.

--------------------------------------------------

My favourite type of weapon is the one most effective against that of which I am shooting
That would probably be somewhere along the lines of disinformation, mind control, and terror.  The best weapons are not the sort that get mounted on a battleship.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:57:18 am by Alex Heartnet »

 

Offline Nohiki

  • 28
  • Graf von Kaffeetrinken
    • Steam
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
"The best weapon is the one you only need to fire once" - Tony Stark

Hence the Sathanas fleet blowing up Capella. There is virtually no form or scale to energy weapons, while the barrels for launching slugs can only be this big to be of any use.

 

Offline Jeff Vader

  • The Back of the Hero!
  • 212
  • Bwahaha
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
I'd just boost the annular confinement beam and be done with it.
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
There is virtually no form or scale to energy weapons

Yes, there is, actually. In real-life physics, anyway, but I gather that this thread has about as close a relationship to reality as judgefloro.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Yes, there is, actually. In real-life physics, anyway, but I gather that this thread has about as close a relationship to reality as judgefloro.

Hey, be nice to the judge. He actually links real things.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline S-99

  • MC Hammer
  • 210
  • A one hit wonder, you still want to touch this.
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
I always thought which of the two were easier to transport? Of course their's manufacturing and cost of course. But, there's also the cost of transporting. Which costs more to transport. In money and fuel. Whether it be a weapons transport transporting these weapons all the way to a whatever ship was meant to carry them. In this scenario, i'm considering weight, and even compactness (how much more of what can you carry in a smaller space aside from power, of course, not the only aspect).

Perhaps there's a balance between these weapons. But, we need to realize that they are too entirely different weapon platforms. Which brings the question aside from cost to what i think should be the focus should be; what will these different weapon platforms be used for that the other can't. That would be the deciding factor in which is the choice. Not everything is balanced after all.

We've only got examples from video games and sci fi shows. I don't think we can gain quite a good understanding for use of energy weapons when all we see the use for them being the same as kinetics. What can you do with the one that you can't do with the other and vice verse?
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline Al-Rik

  • 27
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Torpedoes with nuclear Warheads for Stealth Strikes at long range.
Railguns for medium distances - with different kind of ammunition depending on the situation:
slug: direct hit needed, but devastating
fragmentation:  Flak / area effect, low damage but high change of hitting critical equipment 
or nuclear = long range / area effect - getting near the target counts only in nuclear Warfare and Petting ;)

Both type of weapons can be used without giving away the own position with an outbrust of light and radiation.
Lasers and Plasma only for point defence, with conventional Gatlingguns as last line of defence.

All based on a Hard SciFi Scenario were Space Combat is like today's submarine warfare, with stealth & decoys against sensors.
Oh, fighters will be primary used in conditions were big ships can't work: Asteroid fields, Debris rings of Planets, high/low/medium atmosphere & ground support. They also have a small nice as force multiplier (convoy escort) and strikeships. If they can get near without noticed they are even a thread against big ships.

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Hard Sci-Fi with space stealth? http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php Sorry, reality is killing those dreams again, it always does.

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
not to mention the lack of atmosphere plays havoc with shockwaves meaning you nuke while will have some short range shockwave damage from the material inside.  What little shrapnel survives the blast will have a lot of kinetic energy but there wont be much of it.  in short a Nuke's area of effect damage will be very limited.  best used as a point of impact or to get best use as the payload in a hull penetrator.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline z64555

  • 210
  • Self-proclaimed controls expert
    • Steam
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
I always thought which of the two were easier to transport? Of course their's manufacturing and cost of course. But, there's also the cost of transporting. Which costs more to transport. In money and fuel. Whether it be a weapons transport transporting these weapons all the way to a whatever ship was meant to carry them. In this scenario, i'm considering weight, and even compactness (how much more of what can you carry in a smaller space aside from power, of course, not the only aspect).
Traditional kinetic weaponry rely on the usage of a chemical propellant to accelerate and transfer energy to a bullet or slug, which then transfer what energy it has to the target (or otherwise punch right through it). Therefore, traditional kinetic weapons "consume" mass from the propellant, the slug, and for rapid fire weaponry, the shell. The shell or case is used to conveniently hold the propellant and bullet together, as well as serve as a heat sink for any wasted energy from the propellant's discharge.

Railguns and coilguns use electromagnetic force to propel bullets or slugs, thereby reducing the amount of mass consumed to just the bullet. However, depending on the technology used to generate and store the electrical energy, the net amount of mass of these weapons may be greater than the traditional counterparts.

Armor against traditional kinetic weaponry (including railguns and coilguns) seeks to either absorb all of the kinetic energy of the slug without penetration, or to divert/reflect the slug away. Even if there was a hypothetical armor that could absorb all of the kinetic energy of any slug that hits is, sustained fire at a single point in the armor will eventually heat it up, perhaps even to a melting/softening point at which the armor will fail.

Energy weapons, namely lasers, beams, and electromagnetic wave weaponry (such as a Microwave gun or a X-ray gun) seek to destroy material by raising its internal temperature or otherwise alter the molecular bonds so that the material's molecules will unravel themselves.

EMW weaponry (including lasers) all travel at the speed of light, so their precision is phenomenal and is not affected by gravitational forces for sub-AU distances (like all types of kinetic energy weapons are).

Beam weaponry (including lightning-type weaponry) for the most part behave exactly the same as kinetic energy weaponry, but have the capability of being a continuous stream. Additionally, beam weaponry can have the same effect as laser and X-ray weaponry on the temperature and molecular stability of material.

Just like traditional kinetic weaponry, Beam weaponry requires the "consumption" of mass in order to create the bolts. Lightning-type weaponry require a conduit of some sort in order to transfer the electricity from weapon to target, and this conduit is usually a stream of conductive particles (a.k.a. a beam). Lastly, as with the Laser and EMW weaponry, depending on the technology level of power creation and storage, Beam weaponry can have much more mass than laser and traditional kinetic weaponry combined.

However, if the consumed mass of Beam weaponry is fissile, like radioactive materials such as plutonium and uranium, then the energy requirements of beam weaponry would be mitigated to only the amount of energy needed to start the chemical reaction of the beam material. Read: controlled nuclear blasts in the form of a beam.

TL;DR:
Chemically Propelled Kinetic:
Pro's: Low tech requirements; Light-weight guns; Resistant to atmospherics
Con's: Ammunition limited to amount of materials for bullets, shells, and propellant; Fired munitions go on forever, potentially hazardous for non-combatants; Fired munitions are affected by gravity; Consumes mass

Magnetically Propelled Kinetic:
Pro's: Higher precision and range than Chem propelled; Resistant to atmospherics
Con's: High tech/energy demands; Fired munitions go on forever; Munitions affected by gravity; Consumes mass

Electromagnetic Wave Weaponry:
Pro's: Highest precision; Highest speed; Continuous operation; Unaffected by gravity; Can be "harmless" after a specific range out of focus; Doesn't consume mass
Con's: Potentially slow in transferring necessary energy to destroy target; High tech/energy demands; Vulnerable to atmospherics/ablative armor

Particle/Beam Weaponry:
Pro's: Good precision; Semi-continuous operation; Fast in melting or otherwise destabilizing material on contact; Munitions can destabilize after a specific range
Con's: High tech/energy demands; Speed limited to type of particle used; Munitions affected by gravity; Vulnerable to atmospherics/ablative armor; Consumes mass

Disclaimer: I disclaim any and all information here from being 100% accurate, partially because energy weaponry is not widely known in their operation. :P
Secure the Source, Contain the Code, Protect the Project
chief1983

------------
funtapaz: Hunchon University biologists prove mankind is evolving to new, higher form of life, known as Homopithecus Juche.
z64555: s/J/Do
BotenAlfred: <funtapaz> Hunchon University biologists prove mankind is evolving to new, higher form of life, known as Homopithecus Douche.

 

Offline Aardwolf

  • 211
  • Posts: 16,384
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Eh, one point I've always disagreed with in that "no stealth in space" thing...

Quote
"Well FINE!!", you say, "I'll turn off the engines and run silent like a submarine in a World War II movie. I'll be invisible." Unfortunately that won't work either. The life support for your crew emits enough heat to be detected at an exceedingly long range. The 285 Kelvin habitat module will stand out like a search-light against the three Kelvin background of outer space.

I guess Nyrath never heard of insulation?  :doubt:

 

Offline Al-Rik

  • 27
Re: Kinetic vs Energy - The Debate
Hard Sci-Fi with space stealth? http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php Sorry, reality is killing those dreams again, it always does.
Nice article.
The other alternative is Star Trek SciFi with Stealth & Shields... ;)

The benefit in this setting is want you don't have to create rules how the stuff should work. You can beam any time to planet, except the story needs a situation in witch the Beam Chamber doesn't work.
Same goes for Stealth and Shields...

not to mention the lack of atmosphere plays havoc with shockwaves meaning you nuke while will have some short range shockwave damage from the material inside.  What little shrapnel survives the blast will have a lot of kinetic energy but there wont be much of it.  in short a Nuke's area of effect damage will be very limited.  best used as a point of impact or to get best use as the payload in a hull penetrator.
If you miss the target even by an inch a pure kinetic penetrator doesn't deal any damage.
Even a limited area of effect is better than none. But the thing with the payload on the hull penetrator is a good point.
It would sensible to load every kinetic weapon with a small Nuke. If you score a direct hit, it's devastating, in a near miss it will triggered automatically and will deal at least some damage.