Author Topic: OT - Protest Letter  (Read 9147 times)

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Offline Kellan

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OT - Protest Letter
I know this is OT, and I'm infecting HLP with my politics again (pah), but I thought it was interesting...

Note: It's long, but it gets taken down from the site I got it from tomorrow so I had to copy it all.

===

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression. The signers of this statement call on the people of the US to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11 and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.
We believe that peoples and nations have the right to determine their own destiny, free from military coercion by great powers. We believe that all persons detained or prosecuted by the US government should have the same rights of due process. We believe that questioning, criticism, and dissent must be valued and protected. We understand that such rights and values are always contested and must be fought for.

We believe that people of conscience must take responsibility for what their own governments do - we must first of all oppose the injustice that is done in our own name. Thus we call on all Americans to resist the war and repression that has been loosed on the world by the Bush administration. It is unjust, immoral and illegitimate. We choose to make common cause with the people of the world.

We too watched with shock the horrific events of September 11. We too mourned the thousands of innocent dead and shook our heads at the terrible scenes of carnage - even as we recalled similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City and, a generation ago, Vietnam. We too joined the anguished questioning of millions of Americans who asked why such a thing could happen.

But the mourning had barely begun, when the highest leaders of the land unleashed a spirit of revenge. They put out a simplistic script of "good v evil" that was taken up by a pliant and intimidated media. They told us that asking why these terrible events had happened verged on treason. There was to be no debate. There were by definition no valid political or moral questions. The only possible answer was to be war abroad and repression at home.

In our name, the Bush administration, with near unanimity from Congress, not only attacked Afghanistan but arrogated to itself and its allies the right to rain down military force anywhere and anytime. The brutal repercussions have been felt from the Philippines to Palestine. The government now openly prepares to wage all-out war on Iraq - a country which has no connection to the horror of September 11. What kind of world will this become if the US government has a blank cheque to drop commandos, assassins, and bombs wherever it wants?

In our name the government has created two classes of people within the US: those to whom the basic rights of the US legal system are at least promised, and those who now seem to have no rights at all. The government rounded up more than 1,000 immigrants and detained them in secret and indefinitely. Hundreds have been deported and hundreds of others still languish today in prison. For the first time in decades, immigration procedures single out certain nationalities for unequal treatment.

In our name, the government has brought down a pall of repression over society. The president's spokesperson warns people to "watch what they say". Dissident artists, intellectuals, and professors find their views distorted, attacked, and suppressed. The so-called Patriot Act - along with a host of similar measures on the state level - gives police sweeping new powers of search and seizure, supervised, if at all, by secret proceedings before secret courts.

In our name, the executive has steadily usurped the roles and functions of the other branches of government. Military tribunals with lax rules of evidence and no right to appeal to the regular courts are put in place by executive order. Groups are declared "terrorist" at the stroke of a presidential pen.

We must take the highest officers of the land seriously when they talk of a war that will last a generation and when they speak of a new domestic order. We are confronting a new openly imperial policy towards the world and a domestic policy that manufactures and manipulates fear to curtail rights.

There is a deadly trajectory to the events of the past months that must be seen for what it is and resisted. Too many times in history people have waited until it was too late to resist. President Bush has declared: "You're either with us or against us." Here is our answer: We refuse to allow you to speak for all the American people. We will not give up our right to question. We will not hand over our consciences in return for a hollow promise of safety. We say not in our name. We refuse to be party to these wars and we repudiate any inference that they are being waged in our name or for our welfare. We extend a hand to those around the world suffering from these policies; we will show our solidarity in word and deed.

We who sign this statement call on all Americans to join together to rise to this challenge. We applaud and support the questioning and protest now going on, even as we recognise the need for much, much more to actually stop this juggernaut. We draw inspiration from the Israeli reservists who, at great personal risk, declare "there is a limit" and refuse to serve in the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

We draw on the many examples of resistance and conscience from the past of the US: from those who fought slavery with rebellions and the underground railroad, to those who defied the Vietnam war by refusing orders, resisting the draft, and standing in solidarity with resisters. Let us not allow the watching world to despair of our silence and our failure to act. Instead, let the world hear our pledge: we will resist the machinery of war and repression and rally others to do everything possible to stop it.

From:
Michael Albert
Laurie Anderson
Edward Asner, actor
Russell Banks, writer
Rosalyn Baxandall, historian
Jessica Blank, actor/playwright
Medea Benjamin, Global Exchange
William Blum, author
Theresa Bonpane, executive director, Office of the Americas
Blase Bonpane, director, Office of the Americas
Fr Bob Bossie, SCJ
Leslie Cagan
Henry Chalfant,author/filmmaker
Bell Chevigny, writer
Paul Chevigny, professor of law, NYU
Noam Chomsky
Stephanie Coontz, historian, Evergreen State College
Kia Corthron, playwright
Kevin Danaher, Global Exchange
Ossie Davis
Mos Def
Carol Downer, board of directors, Chico (CA) Feminist Women's Health Centre
Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, professor, California State University, Hayward
Eve Ensler
Leo Estrada, UCLA professor, Urban Planning
John Gillis, writer, professor of history, Rutgers
Jeremy Matthew Glick, editor of Another World Is Possible
Suheir Hammad, writer
David Harvey, distinguished professor of anthropology, CUNY Graduate Centre
Rakaa Iriscience, hip hop artist
Erik Jensen, actor/playwright
Casey Kasem
Robin DG Kelly
Martin Luther King III, president, Southern Christian Leadership Conference
Barbara Kingsolver
C Clark Kissinger, Refuse & Resist!
Jodie Kliman, psychologist
Yuri Kochiyama, activist
Annisette & Thomas Koppel, singers/composers
Tony Kushner
James Lafferty, executive director, National Lawyers Guild/LA
Ray Laforest, Haiti Support Network
Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor, Tikkun magazine
Barbara Lubin, Middle East Childrens Alliance
Staughton Lynd
Anuradha Mittal, co-director, Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First
Malaquias Montoya, visual artist
Robert Nichols, writer
Rev E Randall Osburn, executive vice president, Southern Christian Leadership Conference
Grace Paley
Jeremy Pikser, screenwriter
Jerry Quickley, poet
Juan Gumez Quiones, historian, UCLA
Michael Ratner, president, Centre for Constitutional Rights
David Riker, filmmaker
Boots Riley, hip hop artist, The Coup
Edward Said
John J Simon, writer, editor
Starhawk
Michael Steven Smith, National Lawyers Guild/NY
Bob Stein, publisher
Gloria Steinem
Alice Walker
Naomi Wallace, playwright
Rev George Webber, president emeritus, NY Theological Seminary
Leonard Weinglass, attorney
John Edgar Wideman
Saul Williams, spoken word artist
Howard Zinn, historian

Contact the Not In Our Name statement
[email protected]

  

Offline Zeronet

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Actually Iraq has connections with Osama Bin ladens terrorist organistation, not to mention it stockpiles biological,chemical and is attempting to produce nukes, the sooner Sadamn is removed the better. If American could put its Military forces where it wants and root out terrorism of all kinds, the world would become a much safer place. Also whats this stupidy about a war without limit? The war is on terrorism, the largest growing threat to the world and states such as Iran(who support Palastinian terrorist groups) and Iraq(who obtain weapons of mass destruction and have links to terrorist groups) must be dealt with.
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Offline Kellan

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Uh oh, here we go again.... :rolleyes:

Okay, prove to me that Saddam still has the capability to attack the West with NBCs. You know as well as I that the bilogical weapons he purchased second-hand before 1992 have a use-by date on them - one that has passed. I know this doesn't necessarily mean that they won't go off, but they won't necessarily. In addition he did go through a period of compliance with UN weapons inspections because the UN and member nations' embargo on trade was so stiflying overarching that a million children died because they didn't get medicine which "could be used as a chemical weapon" or some nonsense.

The fact that I accept is that it would be easy for Saddam to get NBC weapons, so embargoes are demonstrably useless. They just hurt his people, not him, as I'm sure he lives on black market goods in the lap of luxury. I'm sure that this will make the Iraqi people hate Saddam, not the West (who are attacking the civilians for no perceptible reason) and they'll overthrow him and welcome America with open arms. Yeah, maybe I should turn my sacasm tag off, too... :p

The other thing that you fail to mention is that Iraq's supposed conncetions with an al-Qaida operative are rumours, as are the assertions that "he has weapons and will kill us alllllll!!! He's eeeevillll!.

Face it, Irag is a regional power, and never really has been anything else. Saddam only ever had the capacity to attack Israel, which I'm not saying is right but is hardly 'threatening the globe'. In addition he has a position and a country which I'm sure he's keen to hold onto - he's not al-Qaida, with no country and nothing to defend - he's just another in the long line of dictators who bluster a lot but don't actually act much.

Sure he's a nasty regional dictator, but maybe it's not the role of the West to see a government it doesn't like and turn on the 'kill' button just because its interests don't coincide with ours. For an example, look at globe-threatening Cuba. :)

---

As for the "unlimited war" I think you will find on closer inspection that the potential for war is in fact unlimited. First, rather than pursue the terrorists who planned and carried out the WTC attacks the US went for a country that couldn't control who went in and out of its borders (although I know they were allied, they were hardly the masters of the universe. Fair enough to attack them, I guess). However, if you look at the new fronts on The War Against Terrorism (acronymise it :D) you'll see that it's now opening up not into a war against the terrorists who did or could do a September 11th, but anyone that Bush doesn't like.

For example, countries include in the latest "spindle of atrocity" are: Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia and Syria. Tell me that all of those are involved in attacks on America and I'll believe you.

It's rather more the case that the US is using what mandate it seems to have been given by the world following 9/11 to press its interests in countires by preventing Islamist regimes from forming (which are natuarally anti-commericialist) and doing away with countries it has a grude with, such as Cuba and Iraq.

---

I am open to the changing of my mind, though this combative post may not seem that way, IF there is relatively independent and/or well-verified evidence. However, until then I remain in support of the protest letter above.

 

Offline Zeronet

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I cant prove to you. Im not in a position to have access to Military data regarding then activities of Iraq, but the mere fact UN weapons Inspectors arent allowed into the country proves he has something to hide. The sanctions are to reduce his ability to maintain a Military force and the No-fly zone to prevent him from bombing his own people. Sadamn isnt just attack Israel, he invaded Kuwait and if that insane git gets nuclear weapons, he'll use them and even if he only has the capacity to attack Israel, does that really change anything? We should act to save any country that is threatened, just because they may not share our nationality doesnt mean who shouldnt help them. The War on terrorism isnt limited to those who attacked American because American wants to rid the world of Terrorism! It doesnt matter whether these terrorists were involved in September 11th or not, they should be hunted down and stopped anyway. Until Islamic Jihad and other Palastinian terrorist groups are stopped, Iraelies wont be able to walk the streets safely. Sadamn if he gains access to weapons of mass destruction and if he is allowed to develop them will threaten the world, i may not have the proof but my Government sure does, they wouldnt be willing to send Soldiers to fight a war without proof. They just cant hand it out willy nilly as the information game must be played. Also the west is attacking civilians at all. Sadamn can sell oil for medical supplies and food whenever he wants, its just he chooses to let his people starve and spend what little money he gets on weapons. There were people protesting about Afganistan, because they didnt see the big picture. All they saw was "war" and thought 'oh dear cant have that', yet through that conflict the people of Afganistan were set free, able to play music in the streets. Once Iraq ability to produce weapons of mass destruction is eliminated(or Saddamn allows UN Weapons Inspectors back in)the world will be safer than it was.
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Offline an0n

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So America are going to end world terrorism eh? So they're going to send in troops to wipe them out, eh? Tell it to Ireland. So America are going to drop marines into the nightmarish battlefields of Dublin? :lol:. Troops have been in Ireland for many decades now yet you'll still get IRA splinter groups blowing things up. Ever wonder why the reports from Afghanistan died down? Because the marines can't find the Afghans. They've even had to resort to reporting bad news which is completely screwing with their propaganda plans. Face it do0d, America should never have started the war, they'll never get Bin Laden and they sure as hell aren't going to win.

I bet you, 2 years from now there's a report on how heroic Marines stormed the caves and captured Bin Laden, but unfortunately there won't be any footage due to security concerns. Then another 5 years will roll by and you'll be hearing about how religious fanaticism is on the increase then BAM, Taliban back in power.
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Offline Zeronet

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American freed to the people of Afganistan, im sure they are thankful of that.
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Offline an0n

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
American freed to the people of Afganistan, im sure they are thankful of that.

And who ****ed up the country in the first place?
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Galemp

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Offline an0n

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Well the Religion thread didn't get owned and this is no worse than that.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
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Offline Zeronet

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Quote
Originally posted by an0n

And who ****ed up the country in the first place?


The Soviet Union by invading and occupying the country :p
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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
I cant prove to you. Im not in a position to have access to Military data regarding then activities of Iraq, but the mere fact UN weapons Inspectors arent allowed into the country proves he has something to hide


maybe, just maybe if the US did stick its nose in where it didnt belong, problems of the past wouldn't be biting our ass right now.  If the US hadnt given Saddam Hussein weapons to fight Iran because we didn't like who was in control of Iran, because we backed a military coup(or assassination, i dont remember), and the Iranians found out and we're too happy with what we were doing(figure that, ungrateful Iranians), we wouldnt be in this mess.  And if you're not convinced, lets try another example.  In the 1970's the soviets tried to invade AFGANISTAN.  This was during the cold war, so anything the Evil Empire did, it was our DUTY to counteract it.  So we armed the mujahadeen to fight the soviets.  Guess who some of the mujahadeen became.  That's right, The TALIBAN.  Go figure.

When we mind our business, other people will leave us alone.  And dont bring up that we go in to free people blah blah blah BS.  When the massacres were happening in Rwanda, the US said it wasnt their problem.  We only intervene if we have something to gain from it. Once we get what we want, we pull out, and if all hell breaks loose, we don't care.  And thats one reason why nobody likes us.

 

Offline CP5670

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Bah, that appears to be written by some of these ultrapacifistic moralist fools. They give some evidence, but take a lot of other stuff for granted, which is no way to construct a logic argument; I agree with some of their implications but not others. The US certainly did a lot of very stupid things in the past that were detrimental to its own long-term interest, but at least it is trying to correct some of the mistakes now. Some parts of that article look like they came straight from Chomsky himself. :p :D

Quote
We only intervene if we have something to gain from it. Once we get what we want, we pull out, and if all hell breaks loose, we don't care.


Exactly. That is what every country does, as well they should. Remember that societies operate on completely different principles than do individuals.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2002, 09:16:47 pm by 296 »

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.


You're absolutely right. The people of the United States did NOT do nothing when their government declared without limit.

The people of our precious little Republic (yeah, not a 'Democracy', a REPUBLIC) CHEERED THEM ON. Did you miss that part? Where were you and your cosignees in November, December, January, February and March when these decisions were made, and these measures passed? Most likely, many of them, maybe even you, were in the 'cheered them on' camp back then. Even if not, there weren't enough of you, or you didn't speak loud or well enough to cut through the mob mentality and make the rest of your fellow citizens see reason.

The spear got cast to the cheers of an angry, stupid polulous. You don't get to unthrow it. The whole thing is destined to be screwed up and leave us with a legacy of old soldiers (those who survive) with broken hearts and minds, and a new generation of the public that hates its government, its military and its self.

[edit]
This actually came out a lot more angry than it was intended.
[/edit]
« Last Edit: June 14, 2002, 10:17:43 pm by 440 »
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline IceFire

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Quote
In addition he did go through a period of compliance with UN weapons inspections because the UN and member nations' embargo on trade was so stiflying overarching that a million children died because they didn't get medicine which "could be used as a chemical weapon" or some nonsense.

Partly because the food supplies were redirected, captured, impounded, and generally messed up by that countries own government.  Plenty of aid workers will tell you that.  I'm pretty sure the Iraqi government can blame itself for sending food away from its starving populace and into the hands of the few with power.

Such is the nature of politics, of backstabing, of general inhumanity, and the idiocy of the world.
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Offline Su-tehp

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I'll admit it. I don't like Bush (not that that's any big revelation to those of you who know me). And I don't like war, any war, not even this one. But I support SOME of the measures that have been taken to wage this war, namely sending the troops to Afganistan. Other measures, like expanding the FBI's police powers and trimming down civil rights, I am deeply ambivalent about.

All I know is this: Osama bin Laden started this war when he murdered 3000 people on 9/11. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING the U.S. has done in the past, not arming the Taliban mujaheddin (Afghan soldiers who fought against Soviet invasion), not propping up Arab regimes to gain allies in the Middle east, not our support of Israel, NOTHING justifies the murder of three thousand innocent Americans. Anyone who says America deserved what it got on 9/11 is a fool, a liar, a hypocrite and a moron.

We'll win this war. Of that I have absolutely no doubt. Osama bin Laddie may run and hide for years. Maybe, just maybe, he'll never be captured. But I know for sure that he can never destroy America. He can hurt us, even kill thousands more of us, but he will NEVER defeat us.

As for the above letter and its signatories, I can fully understand their misgivings about giving the government great power that can all too easily be abused. I may not agree with them all the time or even some of the time, but I still respect them as fellow patriots. It's because of them that possible government abuse of power will be noticed and rectified. If we're really lucky, their exhortations to be careful with these newly given power might even prevent such abuses.

Remember that Jose Pasandra dude, the Hispanic who was arrested a month ago for planning to blow up a dirty bomb? He's an American citizen and he's already been transferred to a military court and being held as an "enemy combatant," something Bush said would never happen to an American citizen! I hate the Taliban and the other Muslim militants who want to destroy us, but I don't trust Bush either.

Go figure.

All I know for sure is that we'll win. Because losing this war is NOT an option.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2002, 10:39:58 pm by 387 »
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Offline Bobboau

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"Remember that Jose Pasandra dude, the Hispanic who was arrested a month ago for planning to blow up a dirty bomb? He's an American citizen and he's already been transferred to a military court and being held as an "enemy combatant," something Bush said would never happen to an American citizen! "

If you inlist in a foreign army currently engaged in hostilities against America, you lose you're citizenship,
So the moral of this lesson is, don't plan to render a section of suburbia a radioactive wasteland for the next ten thousand years, or you risk facing the military courts

As for the "America shouldn't be running around killing people", that is much like the **** of a bull
If anything we should be bombing more, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, supporting this **** should feel our wrath like the Japanese did, all it takes is a few megatons and they'll fall right in line

As for the rest of you, name you're country and I'll tell you who we saved you're asses from, with our frig'n gung-ho wild west cowboy aditude
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Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp
All I know is this: Osama bin Laden started this war when he murdered 3000 people on 9/11. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING the U.S. has done in the past, not arming the Taliban mujaheddin (Afghan soldiers who fought against Soviet invasion), not propping up Arab regimes to gain allies in the Middle east, not our support of Israel, NOTHING justifies the murder of three thousand innocent Americans. Anyone who says America deserved what it got on 9/11 is a fool, a liar, a hypocrite and a moron.


Nobody here ever said that you could justify the murders of 3000 people of any nationality, for any reason at all. You can, however try to explain it. I'm sure that you con understand why the people who did this felt this way, and even though the methods are repulsive, the warped logic working behind them can't be denied. Besides, to do so would be dangerous - 'know your enemy' and so on.

Understanding why this was done is part of the key to preventing it from happening again, IMO. I've no doubt that America will win - they can't not, as the WTC attacks were the kind of attack a losing side makes anyway. However, it's only a matter of time before al-Qaida people or other groups make another attack as things stand. By changing the conditions in which terrorism breeds we can perhaps reduce its future occurence.

---

Bobboau: you seem angry. Take a pill. Relax. ;)

Oh, and as for 'saving your asses' and the "you'd be speaking German now..." thing, it's just not true. The USSR won the Second World War for us, we just made it a lot easier for them with the D-Day landings. Germany had lost by the time their offensive stalled in Russia, and they knew it.

 

Offline Ace

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Overall in this thread, my stance agrees with that of Kellan's.

One word of comment:
"My nation right or wrong. When right keep it right, when wrong make it right."
My stance on patriotism is the exact same as on religion, preach all you wish in the end you are judged on the actions you take as an individual, not on what you speak.
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Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Ace
Overall in this thread, my stance agrees with that of Kellan's.

One word of comment:
"My nation right or wrong. When right keep it right, when wrong make it right."
My stance on patriotism is the exact same as on religion, preach all you wish in the end you are judged on the actions you take as an individual, not on what you speak.


Whee! I have a friend! :D

I'm not an "ultrapacifistic moralist fool" to quote CP, but I do think countries on the whole are irresponsible as outlined further up the thread. I just oppose hipocrisy, and pre 9/11 the Americans were only interested in terrorism and cruelty against their own people, not others.

I'm not particularly anti-American because most other Western Allies are to blame, they just make an interestingly current case study. Besides, Britain did a LOT wrong in the past, and I can admit that. They still do wrong now.

 

Offline Top Gun

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The US. a democracy :rolleyes: Pah! Although I admit that the UK is not that much better. For Example, a lot of the allegations against Saddam Hussain are over exagerated or just outright made up (Tony Blair said Iraq was selling weapons of mass destruction to terrorists but the Intelligence service later confirmed there was no evidence of it at all, but that's to be expected of someone with his political stance who's leader of the Labour Party (the UK's main socialist party)). .....and as for Cuba, well. It's laughable that Cuba is condemed so heavily yet the same politicians that condem it sit down and Banquet with the house of Saud, which is in some ways worse than Saddam's regieme. Anyone remember the 15 girls who died because the Saudi religious police wouldn't let them out of their burning school because they weren't wearing the Hijab.