[Luis Dias]

Me Shivan. Me about to eat all you. All you tribe wars are futile.

Prepare for degustation process.

[-Norbert-]

Uh... damn, man. You may have noticed that a lot of BP fans like to casually roleplay supporting one side or the other, while IRL recognizing that it's a very morally gray story and neither side is wholly good or bad.

I know. I just don't react well at all to jokes about such horrific things as radiation poisening. Those things are just not funny.

[Phantom Hoover]

It's no more not-funny than most of the rest of BP.

[BritishShivans]

I hate how people go hurrdurr Buntu and hurrdurr gtva

One is a supposed utopia ruled by old people with mind control, and the GTVA appears to be more or less ruled be dicktaters of potatoes, who attack people because apparently ububbytu will eat babies or some stupid **** like that. UEF and BP!GTVA suck. I'll be laughing when the Shivans destroy your pwecious suns.

Plus, they have the same name as the SupCom faction. That's sacrilege.

I mean really god, I like BP, but BP's GTVA is filled with violent buttholes and the ububbytu people are filled with what is clearly mind control. I remember someone here essentially said "hurrdurr read da bakstorrie aigan!11"

The thing is, I have read the backstory for BP. And it is one-hundred percent bull that the Elders can somehow manipulate racists, religious fanatics, genocidal dicks, and a large variety of less than agreeable people and get them to either agree or be nice to people the aforementioned disagreeable people despise or hate the guts out of. In order for them to succeed in somehow manipulating them 100% of the time, as the backstory seems to claim, they either have magic, which they pulled out of their ass, and they have MIND CONTROL

And you want to know what? That's bad. Really bad. So is the GTVA security council being sphess dicktaters of potatoes.

I would be happy to see some schism in the civilian population of the UEF, though. It will put an end to this stupid, stupid, "hurrdurr elders are infallible!11" myth that seems to perpetuate Blue Planet. I would also like to see better reasoning for why Ubuntu is apparently some kind of major threat, unless you're just going to say that imperialists took over the GTVA security council and told them to go kill hippies.

If I ruined any conversation here, I'd like to say that I wanted to get this off my chest, and that no, I will not be apologizing to any crazed RPer's days I might have ruined. 

[MatthTheGeek]

Basically the only thing that would make your post correct is replacing "mind control" with "education".

Because that's what happened. Education. You'd be surprised how effective it can be.

And I'm not talking about brain washing, but actual education.

[BritishShivans]

Oh, and there's that too. Indoctrination through education.

Seriously guys, stop having fun

both factions are largely comprised of dicks

[MatthTheGeek]

And yes, you should read the backstory, because despite your claims, you obviously have missed huge chunks of it. I redirect you here. Any conversation with you will be utterly futile until that happens.

[Darius]

Sorry, this is a No Shivans Club.

Gather your brethren and GTFO.

[MatthTheGeek]

Just, let us Carl. I need to worship him every night before going to bed.

[el_magnifico]

Of course it was a spur of the moment joke Norbert, I'm not a blood thirsty maniac.

Too late. They've already initiated me.

@BritishShivans:
Oh my God! Look! Their culture is different! It's obviously because they are brainwashed sheep! KILL THEM ALL!!!

No, seriously, you're the one who's been brainwashed if you think that way. The citizens in the UEF have achieved a degree of enlightenment that makes the GTVA citizens seems like dumb, barbarous monkeys in comparison. The ideals they stand for are fully achievable as is demonstrated by their own society, and they are now fighting to defend that.

Now, in my opinion:

Are they perfect? No. Nothing is.

Do they have the moral high ground? By all means.

Should they renounce to a part of their pacifism in order to defend themselves more aggressively and have a chance of protecting their society? If the resulting society is still better than the GTVA, hell yes.

Does their ideology make them be less prepared than the GTVA for a Shivan invasion? Maybe. But the point is moot. You can never be prepared for a Shivan invasion. Even if you dedicate every spare inch of the entire industrial complex of both the GTVA and the UEF to produce ships for the next 50 years (which, by the way, is unsustainable for such a long period of time anyway), you would still get lolstomped by the Shivan when they decide to show up with their fleet of 80  Juggernauts and whatever else they find convenient to bring with them this time around.

So I say, our best chance is to live the rest of our time in peaceful coexistence, and maybe, just MAYBE, if what we know of the Shivans and Vishnans is the truth and not some silly and pointless fabrication of the truth on their part (and why would they do that anyway?), then MAYBE they will leave us alone. It still seems like the most reasonable choice, considering a military solution for the Shivan threat is plain impossible in this period of Terran and Vasudan history.

[Aesaar]

The citizens in the UEF have achieved a degree of enlightenment that makes the GTVA citizens seems like dumb, barbarous monkeys in comparison. The ideals they stand for are fully achievable as is demonstrated by their own society, and they are now fighting to defend that.

Have they?  What are the Fedayeen for, then?  If the UEF is so enlightened and so awesome to live in, what's the black ops group for?  What are Durgas and Vajradharas and massive antimatter stockpiles for?  Why did the pacifist Elders allow the Solaris-class to be built and armed so extensively?  None of these things are needed for police action.

I wouldn't go so far as to say mind control, but I'm convinced there's a dark side to the UEF we haven't seen yet.

[The E]

I think there's a bit of a misconception here. Just because the "average" UEF citizen is more educated, and less likely to exhibit certain behaviour patterns doesn't mean that all of them are like that. Also note that it is explicitly mentioned in canon that the Jovian Republic populace is noticeably skeptic about the whole Ubuntu thing themselves; they have adapted the economic and some of the social aspects, but they are a distinct culture within the UEF.

And that is without taking the GEF into the equation.

[redsniper]

I'm convinced there's a dark side to the UEF we haven't seen yet.

This I'm pretty certain of and I'm really intrigued to see how it plays out.

I'm also certain that mind control isn't the only way the UEF could reach the state it did. I mean seriously this is way in the future. Look at how far we've come since the 1700s, you know?

[Spoon]

Down with the Buntu's! Bombard their cities!
Reclaim humanities birth cradle from the hippies!

[General Battuta]

I would be happy to see some schism in the civilian population of the UEF, though.

If you've played the campaign you've already seen some of this. The cultural divisions between Earth, Mars and Jupiter are fairly profound (and these regions are themselves nowhere near homogenous).

It will put an end to this stupid, stupid, "hurrdurr elders are infallible!11" myth that seems to perpetuate Blue Planet.

By 'perpetuate' I assume you mean, uh, permeate? I think it's hard to support that reading. The fluff certainly doesn't seem to think the Elders are infallible, since they constantly make big strategic blunders, and the characters certainly don't think so, to the point of vicious arguments between high-level command staff about the 'wisdom of the Elders'.

I would also like to see better reasoning for why Ubuntu is apparently some kind of major threat, unless you're just going to say that imperialists took over the GTVA security council and told them to go kill hippies.

The reasoning for why Ubuntu is both so successful and such a major threat is science fiction. Using centuries of data and mind-boggling powerful computers (consider the difference between a modern missile warhead and FreeSpace's nukes, modern armor and FreeSpace's nuke-drinking plating; now consider the difference between a modern mainframe and a UEF supercomputer) they have refined the modern 'soft' sciences of social projection, political analysis, and economic intervention into a rigorous though not infallible technology.

The GTVA took hostile action against the UEF because it believed that the UEF had both the motive and the means to destroy GTVA society from the inside out. As practiced pragmatists it was a risk they couldn't accept. The GTVA is no stranger to extreme risks; during FS2 they allowed Bosch to complete ETAK and conduct his rebellion, at the costs of hundreds of thousands of lives, just so they could get their hands on the schematics. They even sabotaged their own ultra-warship to allow the Iceni to make it through the Knossos blockade.

You're right that both sides are full of assholes and terrible ideas, but they're also both full of good people and great ideas. (It's interesting that people seem to have the same range of perspectives about the BPverse as real life.)

[An4ximandros]

So when is teh evol Fedayi gonna take over the UESN ?

Also, many people don't get it yet, the GTVA is doomed because in Freespace you don't fight Shivans, Shivans fight you!

[Ryuseiken]

If the Shivans are fighting us they don't seem to be doing such a good job. Their fighters/weapons have their training wheels on, and instead of using those 80 jugs to blow up a star they could've steamrolled over the entire GTVA, it's not like we had the tech to stop them.

[An4ximandros]

Comrade Skalin likes to let enemies glimpse hope before being crushed mercilessly!

[Luis Dias]

The reasoning for why Ubuntu is both so successful and such a major threat is science fiction. Using centuries of data and mind-boggling powerful computers (consider the difference between a modern missile warhead and FreeSpace's nukes, modern armor and FreeSpace's nuke-drinking plating; now consider the difference between a modern mainframe and a UEF supercomputer) they have refined the modern 'soft' sciences of social projection, political analysis, and economic intervention into a rigorous though not infallible technology.

The GTVA took hostile action against the UEF because it believed that the UEF had both the motive and the means to destroy GTVA society from the inside out. As practiced pragmatists it was a risk they couldn't accept.

What I wonder right now is what the supercomputers in the GTVA HQ are "predicting" the future psychohistoric outcomes given the last 20 months of GTVA interference.

Do they still project an Ubuntu danger towards the outer terran colonies? Have such negative trends increased or decreased?

And for how long and how frequent are the decisions of the GTVA being processed into their scenarios? Is it possible to conceive that the GTVA's actions can become apparently unintelligible, strange and awkward, seemingly contradictive or downright stupid for a human mind, because too much trust is being placed on the constant consultations on this oracle?

The scenario above is an extreme (and interesting in its own regard, with multiple political ramifications*) but I do wonder given the whole awkwardness of the GTVA's actions in the war, wanting to get ahold of Earth but apparently being shy of actually getting their hands dirty for not wanting to enrage the populations... wanting to win the war quickly using patience as a weapon... and so on.


* a very interesting ramification is the possibility that the catastrophe predicted by the psychohistorians has been oversold, and a very particular strand of groupthink inside a community of psychohistorians and computer AIs has lost its objectivity in their scenarios, jumping to a dark conclusion and starting a war.

Variants of this idea may include political sleaziness fudging the models and their predictions towards the wanted outcomes and wanted "reports". The war would have begun with a premeditated lie. However I prefer the first variant for it is rather more ironic. It can even become more ironic if the acts in this war provoke the very things the war was designed to deter.

I'm a sucker for irony, what can I say?

[-Norbert-]

The citizens in the UEF have achieved a degree of enlightenment that makes the GTVA citizens seems like dumb, barbarous monkeys in comparison. The ideals they stand for are fully achievable as is demonstrated by their own society, and they are now fighting to defend that.

Have they?  What are the Fedayeen for, then?  If the UEF is so enlightened and so awesome to live in, what's the black ops group for?  What are Durgas and Vajradharas and massive antimatter stockpiles for?  Why did the pacifist Elders allow the Solaris-class to be built and armed so extensively?  None of these things are needed for police action.

Do you remember the speech at the end of FS1?
"All the jumpnodes have been destroyed, but they can rebuild them, but not in my lifetime" or something like that.
The UEF knew about the existance of the Shivans and they were taking some precausions against them.

And to reiterate a point that was made dozens of times already: The UEF are NOT pacifists!
The very existance of such a powerfull military and the fact that they suvived 18 month of war against the highly tuned warmachine of the GTVA is proof of that. Just because you avoid unnecessary violence doesn't make you a pacifist.

As for the Fedayeen: A black-ops operation is far more effective in rooting out terrorists than the regular military. And if hardly anyone knows they even exists, that makes infiltrating the enemies that much easier.
Apart from that, they are also closely tied into the whole Nagari matter and thus somehow connected with the Shivans and the Vishnans, which is something that we will hopefully learn about in WiH2 and BP3. Not everyhing that is hidden is a dark side.