[Black_Yoshi1230]

Bosch magically being on board the Atreus and the Volition Bravos come to stop him.

I would be loving to think in Khonsu's throne room, Steele bought out the Court Jester. Khonsu fires court jester, hires spiritual advisers who warn him of his trap.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]

[Aesaar]

In all seriousness, I'm not convinced the Vasudans were really fooled. It feels like they bought it too quickly--they probably have an agenda of their own, beyond helping the GTA or UEF.

Well, we know Khonsu wants an end to the war, and I think he knows the GTA will be of greater help than the UEF against the Shivans and/or whatever "unspeakably terrible" thing is meant to occur sometime soon.  Maybe, in the face of that, he just doesn't care.

In addition, we don't actually know precisely what the Vasudan reaction is yet.  We've seen what Recamai's immediate reaction was, but he might reach a different conclusion once he calms down.

[Apollo]

I'm of the opinion that the UEF isn't quite as pacifist and weak as the Alliance thinks. Their military isn't, at least, and as the war drags on they're becoming more and more pragmatic. I also don't think they're too nice to fight the Shivans (they're already fighting the GTVA, who are far less bloodthirsty).

However, the Terran branch of the Alliance certainly thinks they are, and Khonsu might agree with them, in which case he could decide that the UEF's destruction is necessary for the survival of the Terran and Vasudan races.

On the other hand, he would be really pissed off if he learned that Steele lied to his forces.

[headdie]

the problem is the general UEF philosophy means that the public expects a reduced emphasis on the military in favour of civilian spending.  the only reason the UEF is even in the fight at all at this point is because the GTVA bungled the first few months of the war giving the UEF time to build up and regroup.  the Shivans on the other hand seem to hit critical mass in the space of a few days to 2 weeks tops, no where near enough time to go through the same level of buildup.

[Apollo]

the problem is the general UEF philosophy means that the public expects a reduced emphasis on the military in favour of civilian spending.  the only reason the UEF is even in the fight at all at this point is because the GTVA bungled the first few months of the war giving the UEF time to build up and regroup.  the Shivans on the other hand seem to hit critical mass in the space of a few days to 2 weeks tops, no where near enough time to go through the same level of buildup.

The UEF's emphasis on civilian spending is as much a product of their system's stability (at least before the civil war) as anything else. If everyone got really scared about the Shivans, military spending would go up significantly, and their warships would be designed exclusively for fighting rather than utility (stupid crap like the Sanctus's peacetime configuration wouldn't exist).

EDIT: Basically, the UEF had absolutely no expectations of warfare anytime in the foreseeable future, and that's why they haven't invested that much in their military. They can still produce powerful warships when they want to (the Solaris is a good example).

[Aesaar]

Something we've over the course of the campaign is that Ubuntu doesn't seem to able to persist in a world with an enemy not amenable to diplomacy.  Just look at the state of your comrades over the course of the campaign.  They either break down because they can't reconcile the necessities of war with their philosophy (like Kassim), or they abandon their philosophy entirely (like Simms).  Hell, it looks like even Calder's starting to see things from the GTVA's perspective, even if he'd never admit it.

The UEF military is weak, simply because Ubuntu doesn't place much importance on it.  Hence why 3-4 GTVA battlegroups are kicking the crap out of it.  The problem isn't that the UEF can't produce good warships, it's that Ubuntu means they don't really want to.

After the GTVA wins the war, chances are they'll adopt the UEF economic model, and they'll probably end up looking more like the Jovians as a result.  The entire war is meant to throw Ubuntu to the wayside, and the GTVA's reasons for wanting to do that have become abundantly clear.

[AtomicClucker]

Heh, I still say the Jovians are the right way to go, minus the fact that Steele whooped them good.

[headdie]

Heh, I still say the Jovians are the right way to go, minus the fact that Steele whooped them good.

the Jovians got beaten because they were a single relatively unsupported battle group vs several GTVA groups lead by a theater commander willing to press that numeric warship advantage using highly aggressive tactics and more than willing to take any risks involved.

the Elders and the 1st BG in particular left the 3rd exposed with predictable results

[Apollo]

Something we've over the course of the campaign is that Ubuntu doesn't seem to able to persist in a world with an enemy not amenable to diplomacy.  Just look at the state of your comrades over the course of the campaign.  They either break down because they can't reconcile the necessities of war with their philosophy (like Kassim), or they abandon their philosophy entirely (like Simms).  Hell, it looks like even Calder's starting to see things from the GTVA's perspective, even if he'd never admit it.

The UEF military is weak, simply because Ubuntu doesn't place much importance on it.  Hence why 3-4 GTVA battlegroups are kicking the crap out of it.  The problem isn't that the UEF can't produce good warships, it's that Ubuntu means they don't really want to.

After the GTVA wins the war, chances are they'll adopt the UEF economic model, and they'll probably end up looking more like the Jovians as a result.  The entire war is meant to throw Ubuntu to the wayside, and the GTVA's reasons for wanting to do that have become abundantly clear.

The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol. This is because it runs completely against human nature. Some aspects of Ubuntu might spread to the rest of the Alliance, but they wouldn't become a bunch of pacifists like the Earthers. I say this because no peaceful philosophy, no matter how appealing, has ever managed to spread throughout the world, or even a single continent in real life, which makes the GTVA's worries about it spreading throughout an entire galaxy pretty ridiculous. It looks even dumber when you consider their borderline-paranoia of the Shivans, which would almost certainly prevent them from becoming pacifistic (fear will usually overcome love and understanding).

Hell, even the UEF is not completely pacifist, with the exception of the Earthers (who are mocked by the Martians and the Jovians). As for people breaking down, that happens in any war. Even the real-life US Army's veterans have high rates of PTSD and suicide, and they have a somewhat violent culture.

Honestly, I think the GTVA's leaders are mainly just pissed off that someone else is controlling Sol, however they may try to justify their invasion.

[MatthTheGeek]

The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.

That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.

[Aesaar]

Apollo: No, it probably couldn't spread throughout the GTVA.  Hell, it hasn't even spread throughout Sol.  However, what it could do is cause a massive ideological rift which would tear the GTVA apart, which just isn't a risk the Security Council can take.  Ubuntu needs to be suppressed, at least for the immediate future.

[headdie]

MatthTheGeek's point is reinforced by iirc the Tev economy is still not doing very well so the fact that prior to the invasion the UEF economy was prospering makes it all the more attractive.

[MatthTheGeek]

In any case Apollo, you might want to give a second read to this, especially the Ubuntu FAQ part.

[Apollo]

The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.

That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.

If it can't completely spread through one system how could it possibly spread through all the GTVA's systems?

Apollo: No, it probably couldn't spread throughout the GTVA.  Hell, it hasn't even spread throughout Sol.  However, what it could do is cause a massive ideological rift which would tear the GTVA apart, which just isn't a risk the Security Council can take.  Ubuntu needs to be suppressed, at least for the immediate future.

I guess that's possible, though I find it unlikely that a simple ideological difference could tear apart the GTVA.

MatthTheGeek's point is reinforced by iirc the Tev economy is still not doing very well so the fact that prior to the invasion the UEF economy was prospering makes it all the more attractive.

If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.

[MatthTheGeek]

Hell, it looks like even Calder's starting to see things from the GTVA's perspective, even if he'd never admit it.

Calder is former GTA. He's a soldier through and through, and as many Jovians has never been very Ubuntu, if at all. He doesn't see things from the GTVA perspective, he just reacts similarly because he has similar background. He is still a firm defender of the UEF and Sol, maybe one of the firmest, but I doubt he gives two ****s about the survival of Ubuntu.

If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.

1) The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.

The GTVA is concerned about public opinion because they fear another civil war at a scale that would make the NTF look like nosebleed. Not because of re-elections.

2) The Tev pop is growing tired of the constant vigilance and Shivan-driven paranoia enforced by the GTVA. Your average Tev citizen already has more than enough to worry about in his daily life between the war, the crumbling economy, the growing anti-zodanism and the overall aftermath of Capella (refugees and stuff). GTVA's best experts have estimated Ubuntu's appeal would be very strong among this population, and they had very good reasons to believe so.

3) Pacifism ? What has pacifism to do with Ubuntu ? Re-read dat FAQ.

[Apollo]

If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.

1) The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.

The GTVA is concerned about public opinion because they fear another civil war at a scale that would make the NTF look like nosebleed. Not because of re-elections.

2) The Tev pop is growing tired of the constant vigilance and Shivan-driven paranoia enforced by the GTVA. Your average Tev citizen already has more than enough to worry about in his daily life between the war, the crumbling economy, the growing anti-zodanism and the overall aftermath of Capella (refugees and stuff). GTVA's best experts have estimated Ubuntu's appeal would be very strong among this population, and they had very good reasons to believe so.

3) Pacifism ? What has pacifism to do with Ubuntu ? Re-read dat FAQ.

1&2) In that case, the GTVA's concerns look somewhat more realistic. Still, they already intend to incorporate some of Ubuntu's social and economic aspects, and I doubt the GTVA's population will ever become so naive as to forget that the Shivans are evil. Remember, they've witnessed, sometimes firsthand, all the horrible things that the Shivans have done to them.

3) I don't think that word is ever specifically used, but the GTVA's main argument against Ubuntu is that it's too pacifist to deal with the Shivans.

EDIT:

The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.

That makes the GTVA look really hypocritical, considering that they criticize Ubuntu for being undemocratic.

[MatthTheGeek]

3) I don't think that word is ever specifically used, but the GTVA's main argument against Ubuntu is that it's too pacifist to deal with the Shivans.

From the Ubuntu FAQ

The prevailing stereotype amongst GTVA citizens is that the Ubuntu Party and the United Earth Federation as a whole are a gang of pampered pacifists raised in a socialist nursery state. This belief is inaccurate, and it fosters a sense of complacency towards the Federation which may undermine our war effort. This misapprehension directly contravenes GTVI's imperative to provide accurate, comprehensive strategic data.

[headdie]

The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.

That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.

If it can't completely spread through one system how could it possibly spread through all the GTVA's systems?

Apollo: No, it probably couldn't spread throughout the GTVA.  Hell, it hasn't even spread throughout Sol.  However, what it could do is cause a massive ideological rift which would tear the GTVA apart, which just isn't a risk the Security Council can take.  Ubuntu needs to be suppressed, at least for the immediate future.

I guess that's possible, though I find it unlikely that a simple ideological difference could tear apart the GTVA.

MatthTheGeek's point is reinforced by iirc the Tev economy is still not doing very well so the fact that prior to the invasion the UEF economy was prospering makes it all the more attractive.

If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.

the issue is not that ubuntu will somehow magically rip the GTVA apart, the issue is that if the general public start taking even some aspects of Ubuntu onboard then the resulting pressure on government to shift from a military and defence focus to a civilian and social focus will reduce the GTVA's readiness for the next Shivan conflict, and remember to date these have been 30 years apart which is a long time in the mindset of a population which from what we have witnessed in the real world, 5 years is a long time to the general public.

[Apollo]

3) I don't think that word is ever specifically used, but the GTVA's main argument against Ubuntu is that it's too pacifist to deal with the Shivans.

From the Ubuntu FAQ

The prevailing stereotype amongst GTVA citizens is that the Ubuntu Party and the United Earth Federation as a whole are a gang of pampered pacifists raised in a socialist nursery state. This belief is inaccurate, and it fosters a sense of complacency towards the Federation which may undermine our war effort. This misapprehension directly contravenes GTVI's imperative to provide accurate, comprehensive strategic data.

From Merrian-Webster dictionary

Definition of PACIFISM

1
: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds

The UEF doesn't entirely fit this description, but the GTVA keeps saying that they are unable to accept war as the only solution for the Shivans (which it obviously is); this isn't exactly the description of pacifism, but it's pretty close.

the issue is not that ubuntu will somehow magically rip the GTVA apart, the issue is that if the general public start taking even some aspects of Ubuntu onboard then the resulting pressure on government to shift from a military and defence focus to a civilian and social focus will reduce the GTVA's readiness for the next Shivan conflict, and remember to date these have been 30 years apart which is a long time in the mindset of a population which from what we have witnessed in the real world, 5 years is a long time to the general public.

They might get pressure to spend more money on civilian and social programs, but with the immense manufacturing power of Sol (this is if the GTVA and the UEF had become allies, which is what I think they should have done), they could of done that and still spent lots of money on the military (remember, Sol has the manufacturing capabilites of many GTVA systems).

Also, if every single aspect of Ubuntu is dangerous to the Alliance, why do they intend to incorporate some of them?

[headdie]

the whole point of the war is to stop any influence of ubuntu from reaching the GTVA population.  if the GTVA enters into an alliance with the UEF then ubuntu will remain whole and the inevitable tourism/immigration between the two will allow ubuntu to spread beyond Sol, worst case scenario for the GTVA.

If the GTVA and UEF form an alliance but block tourism/migration/interaction between ship crews then the GTVA public will want to know why they can't go back to Earth after so many promises.