[Kie99]

1) **** the haters, release anyway YOLO.  Once it's available/"leaked" it's fair game.  You'll make more people happy (including yourself) by releasing a decent mod than you will by pandering to the whims of the makers of a mod that will probably never get released.

That can't be the attitude we take in a community built on volunteer effort. If we effectively remove those volunteers' right to decide how their work is , well, we might not be killing the golden goose, but we're certainly beating it with a pretty sizable stick. I know that if any of my curently unreleased assets were used against my wishes, I'd certainly have to reevaluate the effort I put into them, especially if it was done with community support behind the leaker. It's important that we always remember that there are people behind these models, and while you might not agree with the creators' decisions regarding exclusivity, they have to remain their decisions.

Why would it make you re-evaluate the effort you put into them?  Because people are actually using them rather than having them sitting in unused files on someone's Hard Drive?  I'd have thought that, along with seeing one's name in the credits, seeing them actually being used would be the main reason behind actually bothering to create them in the first place.  I can't really see where you're coming from with this, if you were going to make some money out of the models then I get it, absolutely, but when it's derivative works that you can't get anything else out of other than pride why would you withhold it?

More specifically to this case - as a creator would you not be more annoyed if you departed the forum, came back in five years time and found out that your models have been locked up in a project that was never released and someone else either A) never released his campaign or B) had to waste hours or days his time recreating it after replacing the model than if you heard someone had used it?  Admittedly my MODing experience is minimal, but if I'd created something I'd far rather see it used than not used.

[General Battuta]

But the creator is active, made the model specifically so it would be a big surprise, was really excited for this big surprise, and was absolutely crushed when it was released without his permission.

You'd just go ahead and spit in his face, rather than let him use it how he intended it?

[Solatar]

Just my lurker's two cents, but I find the "I'd rather have it used if it were mine and got leaked" argument I keep reading unconvincing, because it seems to me (again, take my opinion with some salt, as I've never released anything worth a damn) that the people that actually create the majority of these assets - and admittedly keep a minority of them exclusive - don't buy it.  Simply having the capability to download a file, plunk it in the right folder, and change a few lines in a modular table for it doesn't entitle you to make decisions about the asset's use and it certainly doesn't change the fact that people outside a particular mod's team are completely unqualified to make decisions about the status of that mod's release.  Getting stuff (models, etc) for free is just an awesome perk of visiting the same websites as people who actually know how to do cool things I don't have the time or motivation to learn how to do.

TL:D(care or)R - I second Blackwolf and Battuta...

[General Battuta]

I'm with Matth in that I oppose exclusive assets in general but support the rights of creators to determine under what terms they release their assets. Our community is built essentially only on trust and mutual respect.

[Legate Damar]

Personally I'd contact those involved with the mod and offer services of equal or great time value to those involved in making the mod I need.

That's basically a win-win solution when dealing with someone of your calibre. Either the mod is dead, in which case the mod gets used and you don't have to do anything, or the mod gets an injection of new life.

Agreed.

[Kie99]

But the creator is active, made the model specifically so it would be a big surprise, was really excited for this big surprise, and was absolutely crushed when it was released without his permission.

You'd just go ahead and spit in his face, rather than let him use it how he intended it?

If he's active send him a PM and discuss it with him, that's not the scenario here though.  I'm not advocating using it explicitly against the will of the person who made the model, but if he's not around any more and there's no chance of an imminent release from the mod in question then release the mod that's actually complete.

If he comes back and is disappointed that it's already been released, well that's very sad.  It's a scenario that might well not come to pass though, the campaign maker having to cancel his campaign if he doesn't go ahead with the model is a definite scenario though.  It comes down to a choice between one person having the potential release of their model being slightly diminished or another having their work (the campaign) completely cancelled, the first is obviously preferable.

[Droid803]

Personally I'd contact those involved with the mod and offer services of equal or great time value to those involved in making the mod I need.

That's basically a win-win solution when dealing with someone of your calibre. Either the mod is dead, in which case the mod gets used and you don't have to do anything, or the mod gets an injection of new life.

Agreed.

Sounds great, but what if time is the only limiting factor. Then it becomes kind of zero sum.

For example, if you were to offer equal or greater time (assuming that you even have the physical option of offering that), you might as well just re-make the asset myself (ie. Option 2), as in the long run there is absolutely no difference. In fact if you go with option 2 the entire community gets a new asset to play with at the end of everything instead of just one person getting access to something that for the rest of the community has no access to, for the equal time allotment!

Doesn't sound so win-win anymore does it? I mean, you could sure pay the lip service and say that you'll do something in return *later* in which case they have to trust you to actually do it - in which case there isn't really a gain for them, or to deny permission until the job is done - in which case there's no gain in it for you.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but I still don't see it as the catch-all solution.

[MatthTheGeek]

Remember Droid did remake the Tethys at his own fashion. He doesn't seem adverse to remaking existing assets in a way that better fits his stuff. I do agree that in the end it makes one more ship for everyone to use. Problem being time to make that new ship.

[Rodo]

Well you are in a dilemma indeed.
Assuming you were not aware of the exclusivity of the asset (kind of hard to believe, the asset is something that really stands out... I would be at lease suspicious about it turning up with no release thread) and that your mission is already complete and depends on it:

I think the only thing to do is to ask the owner of the asset if it would be possible to release it, or contact the mod leader to verify if there's no possibility of coming to an arrangement.

Either of those would be logical and acceptable to me.

[MatthTheGeek]

Assuming you were not aware of the exclusivity of the asset (kind of hard to believe, the asset is something that really stands out... I would be at lease suspicious about it turning up with no release thread)

You'd be surprised at the stuff you can find on FSmods without any other mention elsewhere. I did some significant digging and went to put some on the wiki, but there are more. The presence of this ship wasn't really suspicious, the quality of it a bit unusual but not unheard of.

[Rodo]

Mmm, then if it's possible to find this kind of things on fsmods I shall remove that statement. I had the vague idea of that being practically impossible.
As far as how to deal with it, the options I gave are still the ones I'd go with.

[Mongoose]

That depends entirely on the active status of who made it (not the mod leader, the model-maker, this is important). If they're all-the-way-gone, I'd say damn the torpedoes and release, if they're still about, try and get permission and if permission isn't forthcoming make something yourself.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.  I'd say the person who made the specific asset is of far more consequence than the mod team, especially if said mod is dead and its showrunners are essentially unreachable.  I don't know the specifics of the situation in question, but have you tried to get in touch with the modeler, Droid?  If they're still reachable in some way, then let them know about the situation, and then respect whatever call they make about your usage of the model, even if it means having to create your own custom model for the mission.  If the asset creator isn't reachable either...well, in that case, I kind of feel like you might as well just go ahead and use the asset, with proper credit given.  If the digital cat's already out of the bag, it can't exactly be put back in, and if the model's floating around out there unused, it'd seem extremely foolish to let it continue to do so.

[Black Wolf]

Why would it make you re-evaluate the effort you put into them?  Because people are actually using them rather than having them sitting in unused files on someone's Hard Drive?  I'd have thought that, along with seeing one's name in the credits, seeing them actually being used would be the main reason behind actually bothering to create them in the first place.  I can't really see where you're coming from with this, if you were going to make some money out of the models then I get it, absolutely, but when it's derivative works that you can't get anything else out of other than pride why would you withhold it?

I would reevaluate because, if my stuff was regularly leaked with tacit community support, what does that suggest about the degree of respect for my wishes and effort? I and many other modders put a hell of a lot of time and effort into these things, and most of what gets made is freely available as soon as it's ready. The rest gets made available eventually as well, but in a manner and time of our choosing. That's our right as the people who've made the effort and put in the hours. Our motives for keeping them exclusive vary from modder to modder and project to project, but they're legitimate motives and, frankly, it's our decision to make. In this aspect, nobody else's opinion matters worth a damn.You're right about one thing though - it's definitely a buzz to see your stuff getting used in screenshots and campaigns - that's the main reason why I release so much if what I make, and probably the same goes for most people who regularly make stuff. But that's in situations where it's being used with permission - I'd feel very, very differently about stuff used without my consent.

[General Battuta]

But the creator is active, made the model specifically so it would be a big surprise, was really excited for this big surprise, and was absolutely crushed when it was released without his permission.

You'd just go ahead and spit in his face, rather than let him use it how he intended it?

If he's active send him a PM and discuss it with him, that's not the scenario here though.

Yes, it is. He's active.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

D. Join the mod team, kick people to life (that's probably all it needs) and get the mod to release. For all you know it's nearly complete already

[MatthTheGeek]

Some people just can't be bothered to get on the sinking boat just to watch it die.

[Kie99]

I would reevaluate because, if my stuff was regularly leaked with tacit community support, what does that suggest about the degree of respect for my wishes and effort? I and many other modders put a hell of a lot of time and effort into these things, and most of what gets made is freely available as soon as it's ready. The rest gets made available eventually as well, but in a manner and time of our choosing. That's our right as the people who've made the effort and put in the hours. Our motives for keeping them exclusive vary from modder to modder and project to project, but they're legitimate motives and, frankly, it's our decision to make. In this aspect, nobody else's opinion matters worth a damn.You're right about one thing though - it's definitely a buzz to see your stuff getting used in screenshots and campaigns - that's the main reason why I release so much if what I make, and probably the same goes for most people who regularly make stuff. But that's in situations where it's being used with permission - I'd feel very, very differently about stuff used without my consent.

Hold up, who's talking about regularly leaking your stuff?  This is one instance where a campaign was inadvertently designed around a particular asset.  Legally it's your decision to make, but again, I ask you, if you had been out of the loop for a few years and had made some assets that were tied up in a project that will probably never get released, would you really have a problem if someone got hold of that asset and used it?  If I'd made something I'd be more annoyed if it never got used because I couldn't be contacted and it was tied up in a dead mod than if it got used without my permission.

If you're about and someone uses it without consent or against your will then fair enough, you've a right to be pissed, but if you're not then more power to the content creators, especially in a scenario where they've invested a lot of time into a project that's reliant on this particular mod.

But the creator is active, made the model specifically so it would be a big surprise, was really excited for this big surprise, and was absolutely crushed when it was released without his permission.

You'd just go ahead and spit in his face, rather than let him use it how he intended it?

If he's active send him a PM and discuss it with him, that's not the scenario here though.

Yes, it is. He's active.

Maybe I've missed something here - is this something that's actually happening in real life or are we talking about the fictional scenario outlined in the OP?  Here's what the OP says about contact

From all you know, the mod is dead, or basically dead, just holding onto assets in case someone picks it back up. You have no idea who's the leader of it anymore, or if anyone even is, thus contacting them is pretty much impossible.

If he's active and available to contact there's no dilemma.

[Black Wolf]

There was a real asset leaked a month or two ago which seems to have bee the nucleus of the problem - it's since been pulled from FSMods. My comments were more about the hypothetical side, and how to deal with such situations in the future. WRT your post, Kie, you're welcometo feel the way you do, but I'm heartened to see that your opinion seems to be in the extreme minority. Makes me feel even better about the FS community.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Some people just can't be bothered to get on the sinking boat just to watch it die.

I don't wish to be rude, but judging by our badge lists I think I have a better view on the situation than you do, TYVM.

[Kie99]

There was a real asset leaked a month or two ago which seems to have bee the nucleus of the problem - it's since been pulled from FSMods. My comments were more about the hypothetical side, and how to deal with such situations in the future. WRT your post, Kie, you're welcometo feel the way you do, but I'm heartened to see that your opinion seems to be in the extreme minority. Makes me feel even better about the FS community.

FWIW I'm talking about the fictional scenario outlined in the OP, not any real situation.  To be clear, if the creator of the piece of work is uncontactable, and the team which holds the asset with permission is also uncontactable, with the mod it "legitimately" belongs to dead or completely stagnant, I say go with it, give the people the campaign.  If the creator is around then speak to him about it and don't release without his blessing.

Some people just can't be bothered to get on the sinking boat just to watch it die.

I don't wish to be rude, but judging by our badge lists I think I have a better view on the situation than you do, TYVM.

I'd say being a member of a project that's still a WIP despite being older than some members of this forum puts you at the fairly extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to judging whether a ship is sinking or not.