[Aesaar]

Weapons in the real world aren't balanced.  Neither are factions.  Imbalance makes fictional worlds feel more real.

This is essentially why I can't get into most 4X games.

[QuakeIV]

I concur, in example Command and Conquer Generals: Zero hour.

EA, in its efforts to balance the game, made it possible for a two hundred dollar GLA (terrorist scum with virtually zero advanced hardware) stinger site be able to easily shoot down f-117 nighthawks.  I pretty much stopped playing any games that had the USA and GLA in them simultaneously at that point.

[General Battuta]

I concur, in example Command and Conquer Generals: Zero hour.

EA, in its efforts to balance the game, made it possible for a two hundred dollar GLA (terrorist scum with virtually zero advanced hardware) stinger site be able to easily shoot down f-117 nighthawks.  I pretty much stopped playing any games that had the USA and GLA in them simultaneously at that point.

But that's hilarious and awesome and at least in general true to the Nighthawk's weaknesses (really basic zero advanced hardware)

[Ryuseiken]

Oh god let's not get into Zero Hour....

Stealth Comanches is all I need to really say. I don't care how good your stealth capabilities are versus radar, no soldier is ever going to have trouble hearing/seeing a goddamned attack helicopter sneaking up on them...

[Aesaar]

Their commander would have to be some sort of tactical genius or something.

[An4ximandros]

Oh I loved spamming SCUD Storms, Nukes and Ion Particle Cannons on that game.

[Klaustrophobia]

i find it strange what command and conquer fans fixate on as too far unrealistic. 

[QuakeIV]

Well the F-117 probably can't be tracked by crappy shoulder launched rockets from the 80's is what I'm saying.

I have to say though that Stealth comanches look awesome even when they are used against you.  My friend used them against a bomb convoy I had heading to his base once, it looked glorious.

i find it strange what command and conquer fans fixate on as too far unrealistic.

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[SaltyWaffles]

Quite.
Ships being different (LRed -> Lillith, for example) makes them more distinctive in the mission beyond how their polygons look too.

In the Lilith's case, it also raises some rather jarring questions, like "How is the Lilith that impossibly good?", or "Why don't the Shivans just build Liliths as their mainstay warship?", or "How in the hell does this add up: like taking a Fenris, giving it the durability of a Deimos, giving it a BGreen, and not changing its appearance whatsoever?", or "Why is this one Shivan cruiser that is aesthetically identical to the Cain--weakest Shivan cruiser--undoubtedly better than every corvette, including Shivan ones, in almost everything?"

The SGreen's problem is its recharge cycle--in this case, it's not so much about balance as fun: the SGreen is often boring as hell because it only fires once in a blue moon. The LTerSlash, for all of its problems, is at least far more interesting to watch and play with.

[Scotty]

Undoubtedly better than any corvette?

I do believe there's a point at which you've gone too far espousing the Lilith's strengths.  A Deimos will fairly wipe the floor with one, since those slash beams will take out the beam turret more often than not.  Without the beam turret, a Lilith is exactly a longer lived Cain; useless.

[BritishShivans]

On an unrelated note, I always liked the Lilith's darker color. It's a little theory of mine that black/darker-colored Shivan capitals have reinforced armor plating, which is why the Lucifer and the Lilith have more HP.

[SaltyWaffles]

Undoubtedly better than any corvette?

I do believe there's a point at which you've gone too far espousing the Lilith's strengths.  A Deimos will fairly wipe the floor with one, since those slash beams will take out the beam turret more often than not.  Without the beam turret, a Lilith is exactly a longer lived Cain; useless.

Really? It's a relatively small target that's impossible to hit from the top. And those slash beams would have to take out that LRed fast; aren't the Lilith's turrets more durable than usual as well, given the Lilith's notable durability for a cruiser?

[Aesaar]

Really? It's a relatively small target that's impossible to hit from the top. And those slash beams would have to take out that LRed fast; aren't the Lilith's turrets more durable than usual as well, given the Lilith's notable durability for a cruiser?

The beam turret is impossible to hit from above.  Ok.  Can't fire at targets above, either.  So the angles from which that turret can't be hit are the same as those it can't itself cover.  Explain how that's a strength. 

That turret isn't small either.  If you can see it, it's actually quite easy to hit, especially from the bottom.  A Sobek will kill a Lilith quite easily in 1v1.

[NGTM-1R]

That turret isn't small either.  If you can see it, it's actually quite easy to hit, especially from the bottom.  A Sobek will kill a Lilith quite easily in 1v1.

FRED testing says no.

[QuantumDelta]

Not sure about the idea of testing capital ships against eachother in a 1on1 vacuum environment...

[NGTM-1R]

Not sure about the idea of testing capital ships against eachother in a 1on1 vacuum environment...

It wasn't entirely a vacuum; I actually tried to deliberately slant it for the Sobek by giving it a waypoint sequence that would take it under the Lilith at angles giving the best shots and ensuring it would have the use of both beams (assuming they were still working). The Lilith didn't move.

But the slashers are just too unpredictable in action to reliably strike the LRed and cripple the Lilith without blatant abuse of sexps.

[SaltyWaffles]

Really? It's a relatively small target that's impossible to hit from the top. And those slash beams would have to take out that LRed fast; aren't the Lilith's turrets more durable than usual as well, given the Lilith's notable durability for a cruiser?

The beam turret is impossible to hit from above.  Ok.  Can't fire at targets above, either.  So the angles from which that turret can't be hit are the same as those it can't itself cover.  Explain how that's a strength. 

That turret isn't small either.  If you can see it, it's actually quite easy to hit, especially from the bottom.  A Sobek will kill a Lilith quite easily in 1v1.

The Lilith maneuvers to give its LRed just enough of an angle to fire on its target. As soon as the beam shot ends, it maneuvers back so that the LRed is impossible to hit (being covered by the rest of the ship's hull). Rinse and repeat. Not fool-proof by any means, but it just tips the balance more in its favor.

Either way, the *best* case scenario is that the attack-oriented corvette with heavy anti-warship firepower disarms the Lilith's LRed before its health falls below 45%. Assuming the Lilith isn't able to jump out before it eventually gets destroyed, that's still a single, small cruiser giving a powerful, heavy-firepower corvette in its intended role a serious thrashing, by itself. No other cruiser in the game comes anywhere near that level of performance, and for good reason: it's like mounting a BGreen on a Leviathan--it's hugely disproportionate firepower for its size, type, and design.

I've always found the Lilith's LRed to be very dubious. Their Finest Hour is notorious for its major...errors, intentional or not, that really distort the performance of most ships present. The Colossus is completely unable to move (then how'd it even get there in the first place?), none of the Allied warships are allowed to use their beams because the beam-free-all cue comes just BEFORE they show up, and the *only* Lilith in FS2 appears with a beam cannon so powerful that it makes the Ravana a master of shock-jumping despite mounting only two of them and being a glass cannon in general--is it not possible that the only Lilith in FS2 was given an LRed for that mission so that it could 'clean up' the allied cruisers before the main focus of the mission (the Colossus's final battle) comes into play? Isn't it rather odd that the Lilith's tech description (not to mention its references in the rest of the game and mission) makes no mention of a heavy, destroyer-level beam cannon, but goes into detail about its incredible armor?

To me, the Rakshasa feels a lot more like the ideal, iconic Shivan cruiser--heavy forward firepower, modest point-defenses and durability, and entirely attack-oriented. Its firepower of 3 SReds is notably dangerous, but it doesn't scream 'a small cruiser-sized destroyer, sans fighterbay' like the Lilith's LRed.

With regards to the Hyperion: yes, the SBlue is a notable improvement over the SGreen; I'd say its best distinction is that it's a viable, light anti-ship weapon--whereas the SGreen isn't really good enough to practically serve in that role. To be honest though, if it were possible to swap out the SBlue's in order to upgrade the STerPulse turrets to TerPulse turrets, it would probably make the Hyperion significantly better in both the AA, escort, and supporting anti-shipping roles.

[QuantumDelta]

Not sure about the idea of testing capital ships against eachother in a 1on1 vacuum environment...

It wasn't entirely a vacuum; I actually tried to deliberately slant it for the Sobek by giving it a waypoint sequence that would take it under the Lilith at angles giving the best shots and ensuring it would have the use of both beams (assuming they were still working). The Lilith didn't move.

But the slashers are just too unpredictable in action to reliably strike the LRed and cripple the Lilith without blatant abuse of sexps.

Nono, I just meant without fighter support/etc
Cruisers always struck me as fast attack vessels(FS2), or fighter screen/support ships(FS1)
I have no problem with the idea that something with an lred would butcher a corvette of any FS2 era description

[Aesaar]

The Lilith maneuvers to give its LRed just enough of an angle to fire on its target. As soon as the beam shot ends, it maneuvers back so that the LRed is impossible to hit (being covered by the rest of the ship's hull). Rinse and repeat. Not fool-proof by any means, but it just tips the balance more in its favor.

So in your scenario, only the Lilith is allowed to maneuver?  See, now you're just proving how silly it is to make comparisons like this.  Maybe in the future, we'll see that beam cannon replaced with some sort of MRed, but right now, the Lilith is a heavily armored mobile cannon that will get shredded by a decent bomber wing or completely defanged by one Perseus mounting a bank of Trebs.  Hell, the Lilith is probably the Shivan ship the UEF would have the easiest time with (apart from the terrible Cain).

The Rakshasa is in the same camp as the Moloch in that it looks like Volition had no idea what they wanted to do with the ship, so its armament is all over the place.  If the Shivans show up in R2 or BP3, I hope its loadout might be looked at.

It wasn't entirely a vacuum; I actually tried to deliberately slant it for the Sobek by giving it a waypoint sequence that would take it under the Lilith at angles giving the best shots and ensuring it would have the use of both beams (assuming they were still working). The Lilith didn't move.

But the slashers are just too unpredictable in action to reliably strike the LRed and cripple the Lilith without blatant abuse of sexps.

Perhaps you're right.  I should have tested more than once, because the Sobek destroyed the LRed fairly quickly when I ran it.

[Droid803]

The Lilith maneuvers to give its LRed just enough of an angle to fire on its target. As soon as the beam shot ends, it maneuvers back so that the LRed is impossible to hit (being covered by the rest of the ship's hull). Rinse and repeat. Not fool-proof by any means, but it just tips the balance more in its favor.

So in your scenario, only the Lilith is allowed to maneuver?  See, now you're just proving how silly it is to make comparisons like this.  Maybe in the future, we'll see that beam cannon replaced with some sort of MRed, but right now, the Lilith is a heavily armored mobile cannon that will get shredded by a decent bomber wing or completely defanged by one Perseus mounting a bank of Trebs.  Hell, the Lilith is probably the Shivan ship the UEF would have the easiest time with (apart from the terrible Cain).

Any maneuvering on the part of the Lilith actually decreases its combat performance. It's LRed discharges continuously, which is why it has such a good sustained DPS. Breaking that continuous fire is suboptimal deployment. The Lilith works best beaming constantly until either something destroys its turret or something explodes.