[Flipside]

Thing is, with new things like impact gel, bullet-proof clothing is shedding weight fast.

My concern about arming teachers is that, should the shooter kill them first, instead of having a weapon, they now have two. Many shooters continue until they either run low on ammo or are killed themselves, more weapons means more opportunities to kill and could actually up the death count. Not to mention the absolute ****storm if a teacher misses and hits another pupil, such a risk would cause hesitation and put the ball even further into the shooters' court who has no such concerns.

[Lorric]

Thing is, with new things like impact gel, bullet-proof clothing is shedding weight fast.

My concern about arming teachers is that, should the shooter kill them first, instead of having a weapon, they now have two. Many shooters continue until they either run low on ammo or are killed themselves, more weapons means more opportunities to kill and could actually up the death count. Not to mention the absolute ****storm if a teacher misses and hits another pupil, such a risk would cause hesitation and put the ball even further into the shooters' court who has no such concerns.

Put guns in the hands of teachers and they'll start pulling them on their classes. All it takes is a teacher having a rough time in life, and a class full of relentless dicks and the gun comes out and

 

[Aardwolf]

That sounds like just about every FPS ever.

"How do we stop Gordon Freeman? I know, let's throw a bunch of mp7s at him!"

[Thaeris]

You Americans and your wonderful, precious guns...

Here in the UK we have about 1/5 of your population, many cultural similarities and about 1/200 of your shooting deaths. No one has guns, not even the cops.

Over there every Tom Dick has a gun. You can just buy a gun, you pick up bullets from a grocery store. Guns are just a part of your life, of course people are going to use them. That and the whole macho man image America likes to project. So when you pull a gun on someone and they don't back down, you're going to think "Oh, I'm going to look like a ****ing pussy now if I don't shoot..."

 

That and everybody who wants to fight is going to be packing a gun because everyone has a gun, instead of using their fists or at worse a knife or a bat.

 

Thank you for that wonderfully uneducated series of posts...

While it may be true that firearms do enable violent crimes to be conducted more easily, the mindset of the criminal is still the problem. Under ideal conditions, if everyone (with absolutely no exceptions) was forced to abandon their arms, perhaps the world would be more safe. As you noted, the UK seems to set a decent example. And then there is the exact same, yet opposite European example, where a well-armed (and trained, the other critical factor) population is remarkably safe and peaceful, Switzerland. Your argument ultimately doesn't hold, because the issue is a social and, ultimately, a personal problem.

...The argument you hold that firearm owners are uneducated meatheads just waiting to blast away at their neigbors is one of horrid ignorance, and unfortunately is communicated by the popular media quite freely. I doubt you have ever had any firearm training or any other sort of martial discipline when you make your claims. And I'll also bet you're all to happy to buy into the popular entertainment industry's glorification of violence and revel therein. I encourage you to challenge your own current beliefs on the matter and look to social discipline and personal responsibility as means of rectifying the issue rather than blaming a device used by an unstable human being as the root of the problem.

[Aardwolf]

I was gonna complain about the fact he assumes everyone in America is a gun nut.

[Thaeris]

It was almost as bad as Piers Morgan selling his agenda...

[The E]

Stop it with the smilies. If you have a point, try to make it by using rhetoric, not gifs. Especially those smilies are in incredibly poor taste in this context, and reveal a lack of critical thinking skills that I for one find appalling.

[Mongoose]

No one has guns, not even the cops.

All of your other fallacies aside, are you trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea?  What do British police do if they come across someone who does happen to be packing heat?  Wave their truncheon in his general direction?

[Lorric]

You Americans and your wonderful, precious guns...

Here in the UK we have about 1/5 of your population, many cultural similarities and about 1/200 of your shooting deaths. No one has guns, not even the cops.

Over there every Tom Dick has a gun. You can just buy a gun, you pick up bullets from a grocery store. Guns are just a part of your life, of course people are going to use them. That and the whole macho man image America likes to project. So when you pull a gun on someone and they don't back down, you're going to think "Oh, I'm going to look like a ****ing pussy now if I don't shoot..."

 

That and everybody who wants to fight is going to be packing a gun because everyone has a gun, instead of using their fists or at worse a knife or a bat.

 

Thank you for that wonderfully uneducated series of posts...

While it may be true that firearms do enable violent crimes to be conducted more easily, the mindset of the criminal is still the problem. Under ideal conditions, if everyone (with absolutely no exceptions) was forced to abandon their arms, perhaps the world would be more safe. As you noted, the UK seems to set a decent example. And then there is the exact same, yet opposite European example, where a well-armed (and trained, the other critical factor) population is remarkably safe and peaceful, Switzerland. Your argument ultimately doesn't hold, because the issue is a social and, ultimately, a personal problem.

...The argument you hold that firearm owners are uneducated meatheads just waiting to blast away at their neigbors is one of horrid ignorance, and unfortunately is communicated by the popular media quite freely. I doubt you have ever had any firearm training or any other sort of martial discipline when you make your claims. And I'll also bet you're all to happy to buy into the popular entertainment industry's glorification of violence and revel therein. I encourage you to challenge your own current beliefs on the matter and look to social discipline and personal responsibility as means of rectifying the issue rather than blaming a device used by an unstable human being as the root of the problem.

You're welcome! 

Alright, serious hat on. As far as I know though, Americans aren't well trained. National service as was mentioned in Switzerland will drill some respect into a person. No national service in America. You can just go pick up a gun. Even kids who haven't hit double digits are getting taught to fire guns. You're right, I know guns don't fire themselves, someone has to pull the trigger, but it's all too easy to do it in America.

Now if I'm wrong, why are Americans slaughtering each other by the dump truck load with guns then? I don't know why you think I would revel in media violence, quite the opposite. Unless it's those little snipe shot smileys.

[Lorric]

No one has guns, not even the cops.

All of your other fallacies aside, are you trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea?  What do British police do if they come across someone who does happen to be packing heat?  Wave their truncheon in his general direction?

There are a few special armed police units. But your regular cops don't carry guns.

It's enough with the low gun crime, but it does have it's issues if someone starts shooting in a remote location, like the 2010 Raoul Moat shooting spree.

There's always the army if anything beyond the police happens.

[swashmebuckle]

Can't get decent universal healthcare to help disturbed people before they become spree killers, can't get any type of common sense gun control laws like most other countries have (even the ones with lots of guns); I guess what we need are giant bullet-proof hamster balls for all pupils coupled with mandatory anti-tank artillery in the faculty lounge.

[Flipside]

No one has guns, not even the cops.

All of your other fallacies aside, are you trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea?  What do British police do if they come across someone who does happen to be packing heat?  Wave their truncheon in his general direction?

Actually, one specific branch of the Police, SO19 are fully trained in firearms use, however since they need to be called out, it does mean that officers on the spot are usually only armed with Pepper Spray.

This has led to tragedies : http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/18/woman-police-officer-killed-manchester

However, it could be argued that, given the nature of the attack, even if they had been armed, it would not have made a difference.

[General Battuta]

I have spent a lot of time with guns and have pretty serious self defense training and I would not want to carry and would not want people around me to either.

[Polpolion]

Yes.  Let's arm school teachers and allow guns on school property.  That can't possibly go wrong.

So let's disarm school teachers and disallow guns on school property.  That can't possibly go wrong either...

Are you actually advocating arming teachers and allowing guns on school property?  In a serious sense?

quite an insightful discourse you have going here.

Anyway, to be perfectly honest mass shootings don't happen often enough to merit any change in gun laws on school campuses or anything. Maybe I sound callous and cold but how many people have died in the past 10 years in school shootings? A quick look at wikipedia and I'm pretty sure the number is in the hundreds. How many people have died as a result of smoking in the past 10 years? Maybe I'm taking a bit of a leap here but I don't think it's worth all the accidents that would happen (they would, and lots of them) to allow guns in a place full of children and angsty teenagers - remember: it's not just crazy nuts you need to worry about.

[Mongoose]

I have spent a lot of time with guns and have pretty serious self defense training and I would not want to carry and would not want people around me to either.

Given how little faith I have in the average intelligence of my fellow human beings, I'm in full agreement.  I'd make police the lone exception, since they actually have the required training, and at least as a general rule seem to use firearms appropriately.

[BrotherBryon]

Heard a radio news report on the way home that stated that the shooter did in fact have to force his way into the school. So short of having armed police officers stationed in elementary schools there doesn't seem to be much else the school could have done. Oh and I agree with the Batman and Mongoose, last thing we need is a bunch of gun toting amateurs with no training running around shooting at any thing they may feel to be suspicious. Doesn't mean we need to restrict gun laws much further as it is pretty much a given that some one who wants a gun is going to find a way to get one. The thing we need to fix is the notoriety these assholes get when they decide they want to take their own lives in the messiest most sadistic way possible so that others will remember or take notice of them.

[Thaeris]

Alright, serious hat on. As far as I know though, Americans aren't well trained. National service as was mentioned in Switzerland will drill some respect into a person. No national service in America. You can just go pick up a gun. Even kids who haven't hit double digits are getting taught to fire guns. You're right, I know guns don't fire themselves, someone has to pull the trigger, but it's all too easy to do it in America.

Now if I'm wrong, why are Americans slaughtering each other by the dump truck load with guns then? I don't know why you think I would revel in media violence, quite the opposite. Unless it's those little snipe shot smileys.

Right. Sure. Let's pretend that you can't learn anything from anyone besides a state-appointed official. Or that they sell shotguns to anyone in the average grocery store. If you believe either of those two things, you need to spend more time in contemplation. The "America" you're trying to explain to me is a nation I don't have any experience with, and I live in the United States. If you think the US is some sort of post-apocalyptic nightmare or the wild west where everyone is out to kill each other, and that the morgues are overflowing with shooting victim corpses, then you're delusional. I don't think you think it that bad, but hey, I could be wrong.

If nothing else, your views scream out a perspective that the individual is not to be trusted and is a danger that must be contained. It is a viewpoint that dictates that normal, law-abiding citizens are just as much a threat as mentally-unstable psychopaths. I find that perspective very offensive indeed.

[NGTM-1R]

Now if I'm wrong, why are Americans slaughtering each other by the dump truck load with guns then? I don't know why you think I would revel in media violence, quite the opposite. Unless it's those little snipe shot smileys.

I'd be curious to see a per-capita statistic, since your efforts to compare the relatively tiny population of the UK to that of the US are amusingly flawed on their face.

I'm betting the shootings number per exty population is a lot closer than you think.

[Lorric]

Now if I'm wrong, why are Americans slaughtering each other by the dump truck load with guns then? I don't know why you think I would revel in media violence, quite the opposite. Unless it's those little snipe shot smileys.

I'd be curious to see a per-capita statistic, since your efforts to compare the relatively tiny population of the UK to that of the US are amusingly flawed on their face.

I'm betting the shootings number per exty population is a lot closer than you think.

Tiny? 63 million is not tiny. 1/5 of the US.

I saw that Bowling for Columbine thing, and...

Gun deaths:

Japan: 39 (0.030/100,000)
Australia: 65 (0.292/100,000)
United Kingdom: 68 (0.109/100,000)
Canada: 165 (0.484/100,000)
France: 255 (0.389/100,000)
Germany: 381 (0.466/100,000)
United States: 11,127 (3.601/100,000)

Okay so my 1/200 estimate was way off, but the US still has roughly 35X more gun deaths by population than the UK.

[redsniper]

Let's pretend ... that they sell shotguns to anyone in the average grocery store.

I actually agree with your post there, but this part amused me. You can totally buy shotguns at Wal-Mart.