Author Topic: Another school shooting in the US  (Read 50238 times)

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Offline headdie

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
what was the security to press ratio there?
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Re: Another school shooting in the US
You can't approach the subject of firearms regulation in vast countries with remote areas like Canada and the US from the perspective of someone who has spent virtually their entire life in the non-remote areas of the UK.  It disrespects the nuances of the siituation.
Speaking of the nuances of the situation, Canada and Australia both have at least semi-functional mental health systems. Not only that, but counter to the viewpoint you expressed in your post, millions of Americans do indeed view guns as "an object of fascination" rather than "a tool with a purpose" (despite the NRA's pious lip service to the contrary). Emulating Canada's gun regulations would do nothing to curb that nasty aspect of American gun culture (and would probably inflame it by making our right-wing militia types feel that their fears are justified). Would modeling our gun control on Canadian laws help a little? Probably. Would it reduce our gun violence rates to levels comparable to those seen in Canada, absent big changes to other parts of our policy and culture? Nope.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Kajorama.... having sex with another human being is not the same as slaughtering innocent children, which is the crux of the issue.

Furthermore... I am very put off by your comment about "responsible sex lives". Who sleeps with whom is no business of anyone and especially not that of the state.
I think you are majorly misinterpreting the actual goals of sex education. It is most certainly not to encourage or discourage people from finding relationships and enjoying sex... but rather about giving them the knowledge of how to do safely what they would do anyways.


I got about this far into your post before I had to stop and simply ask "Are you even reading my posts?" Where have I claimed that sex education is about the state telling people who to sleep with? Where have I claimed that sex education isn't about giving kids the knowledge about how to have sex safely? I've made exactly the points you just made because they support my position.

Then I've said that the way you're acting about teaching firearm safety in schools is exactly the same way the religious right act about sex. They want abstinence only. Your suggestion for how kids should approach guns is.....abstinence only. You've even stated yourself that kids are going to be able to get hold of guns. The parallels are pretty clear.

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You can't even blame sex education for any kind of "encouragement" when any potential encouragement gets dwarfed by the actual encouragement present everywhere in our society and especially in the media. Finally ... if anything, learning about the dangers of STDs will be a discouragement, not an encouragement. ;) lol.

You can't even blame teaching gun safety for any kind of "encouragement" when any potential encouragement gets dwarfed by the actual encouragement present everywhere in our society and especially in the media. Finally ... if anything, learning about the dangers of accidental shootings will be a discouragement, not an encouragement. ;) lol.

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Sex Education is quite effective at encouraging people to have safe sex and preventing teenage pregnancies as well as STDs. That is very much a proven fact.

So why are you resistant to the idea of teaching gun safety? 1 kid every 3 days. One Sandy Hook every 2 months. This is not a small number. Banning semi-automatic weapons is not going to help with that much. I suspect that the laws that MP Ryan mention would do a lot more good.

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Back on topic, as I have also pointed out before... while teaching gun safety may indeed reduce accidents... it would do nothing at all to prevent deliberate slaughter.
If someone wants to kill people... they will do so. If they know about how to handle weapons safely they will only do so more effectively. The question that remains is what weapon they have easily access to. If that guy in the latest shooting had only a knife then he propably would have been quickly subdued by the principal, his deputy and the school psychologist... but no, he had an assault rifle and gunned all three of them down.


As I pointed out before, the reason a mentally unstable person had access to weapons is because of several failings in the system. The ultimate one however was the decision of the shooter's mother to allow a mentally unstable person access to weapons. Are you seriously telling me that education can do nothing to prevent that?

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What I have been saying and am saying is that teaching gun safety would in no way or form have any kind of effect on school massacres... except in possibly making the shooter more competent in handling those guns.


And this is the second time I've pointed out why you're wrong. It would have a small effect. So it's a step in the right direction.


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We are on complete agreement on the need to ban assault rifles, but while you are very confident that multiple angles can be pursued at the same time, I rather worry that if "teaching gun safety" is brought up, the pro gun lobby will latch on and sell it as "the solution TM" - while even further promoting availability of semi automatic and assault weapons at the same time, ... and propably get away with it for a couple of years and countless more bloodbaths.


And they'll say the same thing about banning semi-automatic weapons. As I keep pointing out, you need a raft of measures. Not just one simple solution. There needs to be some give and take or nothing will happen. You're arguing ideals, I'm arguing a practical solution.

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Finally... another point that we may or may not be in disagreement with: Underage persons should not handle guns. Period. There is a reason why there is an age limit on alcohol and driving cars and any of those reasons is ten times true when it comes to guns. Kids and teenagers, no matter what you teach them, will not consistently act responsible. Many adults won't either for that matter, but  kids and teenagers pretty much come with a guarrantee for irresponsible behavior.

What's the age of consent in America?

You can make the same argument for sex ed. Since kids shouldn't be having sex at 13, we shouldn't teach them about sex until they reach the age they should be doing it.



Let me simply ask you the same question MP-Ryan was asked. My response would have been virtually the same as his. About the only difference is that I would re-enact the ban on semi-automatics.

But if you were god-emperor of the US for a day, what laws would you enact?
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Age of consent ranges between 16 and 18 in most of the states.  Twenty nine states and the District of Columbia have it set at 16, 9 states have it set at 17, and the remaining 12 have it set at 18.  Just as a quick FYI.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
You can't approach the subject of firearms regulation in vast countries with remote areas like Canada and the US from the perspective of someone who has spent virtually their entire life in the non-remote areas of the UK.  It disrespects the nuances of the siituation.
Speaking of the nuances of the situation, Canada and Australia both have at least semi-functional mental health systems. Not only that, but counter to the viewpoint you expressed in your post, millions of Americans do indeed view guns as "an object of fascination" rather than "a tool with a purpose" (despite the NRA's pious lip service to the contrary). Emulating Canada's gun regulations would do nothing to curb that nasty aspect of American gun culture (and would probably inflame it by making our right-wing militia types feel that their fears are justified). Would modeling our gun control on Canadian laws help a little? Probably. Would it reduce our gun violence rates to levels comparable to those seen in Canada, absent big changes to other parts of our policy and culture? Nope.

No one, least of all me, is saying the US is going to see that cultural shift around firearms anytime soon.  You're absolutely correct that it would help a little but wouldn't bring the gun violence rates in line with the other comparables.  That said, even a little help is better than doing nothing.  In Canada, the major shift took about 30 years, and we didn't have a constitutional right to keep/bear arms to deal with.  Any change is going to take much longer to occur in the United States, but I fully believe it's possible.

Also, while not part of my response to LP, you just have to laugh at the NRA.  Anyone who didn't realize just how loony that bunch is would think they're a satirical organization based on today's statements.  Armed guards in every school?  Land of the free, indeed.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Eh... it would mean a much faster response time than calling 911...

Edit: oh, but then you have to worry about the weapons being misused, or feeding the bad guy weapons & ammo. Maybe keep them in a locker with a 2-key system?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 11:58:50 pm by Aardwolf »

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
I've seen a number of interesting write-ups come out of this whole thing, but this one actually dates a few months back, to the Aurora, Colorado shooting.  It makes the argument why renewing the "assault weapons" ban would accomplish absolutely nothing, and how the original ban was incredibly poorly-written and had little to no practical effect.  I wasn't even aware of any of that myself before reading it, but if it's the sort of legislation that people are going to push for again, then it'll do ****-all to solve the actual underlying problems.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Eh... it would mean a much faster response time than calling 911...

Edit: oh, but then you have to worry about the weapons being misused, or feeding the bad guy weapons & ammo. Maybe keep them in a locker with a 2-key system?

The point being: if you've gotten to the point where you need to station armed guards in every school, you already ****ed up somewhere else.
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Re: Another school shooting in the US
I've seen a number of interesting write-ups come out of this whole thing, but this one actually dates a few months back, to the Aurora, Colorado shooting.  It makes the argument why renewing the "assault weapons" ban would accomplish absolutely nothing, and how the original ban was incredibly poorly-written and had little to no practical effect.  I wasn't even aware of any of that myself before reading it, but if it's the sort of legislation that people are going to push for again, then it'll do ****-all to solve the actual underlying problems.

The 1994 assault weapons ban was something of a highlight in the occasional disconnect between good politics and good governance.

When you craft a bill that you hope will become a law, there is a section in the bill's introduction that states the bill's purpose.  The content of that section is always carries an implicit lie within it.  A budget bill, for example, might say that its purpose is to fund the government, reduce deficits over the following [X] years, and lessen the tax burden on citizens.  Those are all secondary goals of the bill, at best.  If the purpose section of a bill was an honest representation of the bill's goals, then items number one, two, and three would always be, "To pass in Congress, avoid or override a Presidential veto, and survive any potential judicial challenge."

You could write a budget bill that would be the perfect solution to fund the government, reduce deficits, and lessen tax burdens, but if it is rejected by Congress, gets successfully vetoed, or is struck down in court, then it doesn't do anything to advance the stated goals.  What do you do?  Do you put forward this bill anyway, ultimately wasting your time on legislation that cannot accomplish anything because it will not carry the force of law?  Alternatively, do you water down your perfect budget, to align it with judicial interpretation of the Constitution and existing law and the politics of the legislature and chief executive, so that your bill can pass and do something?  If you are willing to compromise, how much are you willing to compromise?  Is it enough for your bill to do half of what you had hoped?  Is it enough for your bill to do a quarter of what you had hoped?  Is it enough for your bill to do one quantum more than nothing toward your stated goals?  Is it enough for your bill to do nothing toward your stated goals now, if it lays the political groundwork for a later (possibly much later) bill that can make progress toward those goals?

Now, put yourself in Diane Feinstein's shoes, in late 1993.  Mass shootings had affected her constituency twice in as many years, and so she wanted to prevent or mitigate future incidents.  She could have crafted legislation as simplistic as Lorric has repeatedly advocated, calling for a total ban on firearms and the confiscation or mandatory buyback of all privately owned guns.  Such a law would certainly have had a huge impact on gun violence.  Such a bill would never be so much as entertained on a committee schedule, though.  Even if it did manage to find enough favor in the committee process to reach the floor of both houses of Congress for a vote, it would have had the support of no more than about ten Senators and forty House members, even in the Democratic majority of 1993/1994.

Feinstein, in crafting the assault weapons ban, had to compromise, straight from the off, to serve the greater purpose of granting the ban the force of law, so that it could do something, anything, rather than nothing.  The effect of compromising the ban to the point where it could be reasonably expected to pass Congress and survive judicial challenge led to the class of banned weapon being defined by the superficial (folding stocks) and the extreme (barrel-mounted grenade launchers, a feature conspicuously ignored by your referenced blog post).  It's a grim hypothetical to ponder if any mass-murderer would have utilized a barrel-mounted grenade launcher, purchased between the years of 1994 and 2004, to supplement his/her deed, but if there was one such killer who would have added another person to his/her body count with such an attachment, then the 1994 assault weapons ban did its one quantum more than nothing.  Certainly, that's a low bar to set, in terms of practical consequence, but it was still a high bar to set politically.  The alternatives were overreaching and accomplishing nothing or doing nothing, which always begets nothing.  In other words, good politics had to supercede good governance to achieve even so little as to say, "We, as a nation, feel that barrel-mounted grenade launchers only belong in the hands of military and law enforcement, but we're cool with it, if you already own one."

Now, I'll say that my knee-jerk reaction to hearing Senator Feinstein talk about reintroducing the assault weapons ban in the coming Senate session was to call it bone-headed.  For the entire ten years that the 1994 assault weapons ban was in place, it was a free cudgel with which Republicans got to beat the living tar out of Democrats.  It remains a tool of the gun lobby to promote the notion that there is no such thing as effective gun control legislation (which is only true inasfar as the gun lobby and current interpretation of the second amendment prevent effective gun control from being politically or legally viable).  While Senator Feinstein obviously sees the 1994 assault weapons ban as having done at least its one quantum more than nothing, I see it as having been counterproductive, having laid the political groundwork, not for more effective gun control, but for more effective opposition to gun control.  By 2004, Democrats had dropped gun control from their party platform, in an effort to stop hemmoraging seats in the legislature, and with their opposition gone, we as a nation, were not willing to renew any part of the assault weapons ban, not even the bit about grenade launchers.  I don't like the idea of getting to 2022 and finding that we've made no progress whatsoever in dealing with gun-related problems because the well was poisoned by heavily compromised legislation.

That being said, we haven't seen the text of the bill that Senator Feinstein intends to introduce this time out, and she has made clear that she has changed the ban from the 1994 version.  I still don't hold high hopes for it being any more practically effective, since it still has to pass Congress and survive judicial challenge, but it is quite audacious to try to judge a bill before its text is available.

I do think the old assault weapons ban, if reintroduced, could be made more politically effective, though.  In District of Columbia v. Heller, the majority opinion was delivered with a variation of the old adage, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."  Even Scalia knew the ruling in that case was interpreting the second ammendment to state that Congress cannot prevent anyone from buying any type of weapon, from a 0.22 pistol that can barely penetrate heavy paper to a 20mm autocannon pulled from an Apache helicopter.  I think that a new assault weapons ban should be crafted specifically to put that ruling to the test.  Draw a line in the sand where everyone, or nearly everyone, in the United States will be on the same side.  Maybe that's a ban that only does away with 20+mm autocannons and barrel-mounted grenade launchers, which have never (to my knowledge) been used in the commission of a civilian crime.  The goal of such a ban would not be to reduce crime, but rather to get one person to commit the crime of buying one of those weapons, so that the Supreme Court can strike down the ban (D.C. v. Heller, lolz) and get the populace to realize in large enough numbers that the second ammendment is too broad and requires revision, so that, in the future, we can address the issue of gun control in a sensible and effective manner.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Has anyone misused the term "Assault Rifle" in this thread yet? It always happens.

A semi-automatic is NOT an assault rifle regardless of how tacticool it looks.

And the banning semi-auto argument is kind of moot. A little practice with a bolt action will carry you a very long way. Pump shotguns can be very very quick as well.

Has anyone suggested common-sense mental health screening/healthcare improvement, teaching of gun safety, and banning of quick-buy gun shows? That's probably the best first step in my opinion.

Disclaimer: I'm a gun owner/collector. I don't support any sort of weapons ban, but I do support legislation that help prevent mass killings regardless of the method used.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Has anyone suggested common-sense mental health screening/healthcare improvement, teaching of gun safety

Yes, repeatedly. Or do you mean IRL politicians?

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and banning of quick-buy gun shows? That's probably the best first step in my opinion.

Afaik I'm the only other person who has even mentioned this issue in this thread, and nobody acknowledged it.   :blah:

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Has anyone suggested common-sense mental health screening/healthcare improvement, teaching of gun safety

Yes, repeatedly. Or do you mean IRL politicians?

I know IRL politicians aren't suggesting sensible things like that with any seriousness. I just hadn't read most of the thread, but I assumed most people here would be well aware of those issues. I'm just afraid there's been a lot of the "Brady Bunch" nonsense flowing freely. I've tried to avoid this thread up until this point, but the last couple pages looked sensible so I decided it wouldn't be too bad to step into the conversation.

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and banning of quick-buy gun shows? That's probably the best first step in my opinion.

Afaik I'm the only other person who has even mentioned this issue in this thread, and nobody acknowledged it.   :blah:

Yeah man that's a real big loophole that needs to be plugged. I'm all for guns being available, but roving gun shows tend to pack around some serious firepower with limited or non-existent accountability for buyer and seller.
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Re: Another school shooting in the US
I've been seeing the reports of mass gun and ammunition buying that keeps breaking records over the past years, especially now after this school shooting; it seems people take guns so serious that they don't mind waiting up to 4 hours in order to acquire them. Local reports like this one gives a little example of that as well.

I'm thinking gun control won't work in the USA and would go so far as to say that the act of restricting the guns will lead to another civil war or even revolutionary war. When the Redcoats went to confiscate the guns, even after the long train of abuses (after 10 years of nonviolent disobedience and protests by the colonists) before that time is when the revolution really got off the ground.

I feel that this is something's that's been missing in this debate on guns though, both here on HLP and in general. The need for all citizens, being the militia, to be well equipped and trained against a tyrannical federal government in case it goes back against it's citizens, rather than only for defense against home invasion or for hunting. The whole Constitution is written and created to ensure that the government is the servant of the people rather than the other way around, and the Second Amendment being there to defend the First Amendment, as well, since they fought a bloody revolution to rid themselves of government that turned tyrannical.

Collective punishment for the acts of a few deranged lunatics (who in this newest case didn't legally obtain the murder weapon anyway) doesn't really work in a society which prides itself on individualism and freedom. Much like you shouldn't re-arm a disarmed society suddenly (or maybe even at all), it's a horrible idea to attempt the disarmament of a fully armed one.
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Re: Another school shooting in the US
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Collective punishment for the acts of a few deranged lunatics (who in this newest case didn't legally obtain the murder weapon anyway) doesn't really work in a society which prides itself on individualism and freedom. Much like you shouldn't re-arm a disarmed society suddenly (or maybe even at all), it's a horrible idea to attempt the disarmament of a fully armed one.

FIrst of all, I don't really like your term of "Disarmed society", as it implies that a society used to be armed, but now is no longer. More often then not, the societies which are unarmed didn't really have all that much arms in the first place.
It's not really "collective punishment" either. Collective punishment is locking people up because their family members did something. Restricting acces of guns to people who are mentally sound is not collective punishment. It is not like you are taking away their freedom, or their food, or their lives.

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I feel that this is something's that's been missing in this debate on guns though, both here on HLP and in general. The need for all citizens, being the militia, to be well equipped and trained against a tyrannical federal government in case it goes back against it's citizens, rather than only for defense against home invasion or for hunting. The whole Constitution is written and created to ensure that the government is the servant of the people rather than the other way around, and the Second Amendment being there to defend the First Amendment, as well, since they fought a bloody revolution to rid themselves of government that turned tyrannical.

That doesn't work anymore these days. The government has tanks.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
FIrst of all, I don't really like your term of "Disarmed society", as it implies that a society used to be armed, but now is no longer. More often then not, the societies which are unarmed didn't really have all that much arms in the first place.

You did read the thing about 88 guns per 100 people? (Granted I suspect a majority of those are repeat ownership, but still.) Basically, go back and read the thread again and you'll realize that's not a valid criticism.

That doesn't work anymore these days. The government has tanks.

I direct you to Syria for what happens when the government is forced to interact with their citizens via the use of armored vehicles. (Hint: they're losing.)

It takes boots on the ground, the infantryman and his rifle, to create basic safety and security for the citizens, take weapons away from those the government deems unacceptable, create a simple form of legalized public order, and generally do everything necessary to rebuild governmental control. All tanks can do is destroy buildings, an essentially terroristic act that does nothing to reestablish control and can even increase the local resistance to the dictates of the government.

The objection that advanced military technology invalidates the possibility of armed resistance from the populace is invalid on its face and upon closer examination.
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Re: Another school shooting in the US
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You did read the thing about 88 guns per 100 people? (Granted I suspect a majority of those are repeat ownership, but still.) Basically, go back and read the thread again and you'll realize that's not a valid criticism.

This was not about america, but about the term "Disarmed society" in general, as used by JCDNWarrior.

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I direct you to Syria for what happens when the government is forced to interact with their citizens via the use of armored vehicles. (Hint: they're losing.)

It takes boots on the ground, the infantryman and his rifle, to create basic safety and security for the citizens, take weapons away from those the government deems unacceptable, create a simple form of legalized public order, and generally do everything necessary to rebuild governmental control. All tanks can do is destroy buildings, an essentially terroristic act that does nothing to reestablish control and can even increase the local resistance to the dictates of the government.

The objection that advanced military technology invalidates the possibility of armed resistance from the populace is invalid on its face and upon closer examination.

On the other hand, Libya needed the intervention of massive airstrikes for the rebellion to succeed.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Quote
You did read the thing about 88 guns per 100 people? (Granted I suspect a majority of those are repeat ownership, but still.) Basically, go back and read the thread again and you'll realize that's not a valid criticism.

This was not about america, but about the term "Disarmed society" in general, as used by JCDNWarrior.

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I direct you to Syria for what happens when the government is forced to interact with their citizens via the use of armored vehicles. (Hint: they're losing.)

It takes boots on the ground, the infantryman and his rifle, to create basic safety and security for the citizens, take weapons away from those the government deems unacceptable, create a simple form of legalized public order, and generally do everything necessary to rebuild governmental control. All tanks can do is destroy buildings, an essentially terroristic act that does nothing to reestablish control and can even increase the local resistance to the dictates of the government.

The objection that advanced military technology invalidates the possibility of armed resistance from the populace is invalid on its face and upon closer examination.

On the other hand, Libya needed the intervention of massive airstrikes for the rebellion to succeed.

I'd wager the American situation in event of revolution is unique from many that have occured in the Arab Spring. Society is structured much differently, and we have interesting military/police organizations like these (not to imply Im much of a libertarian).  We have astounding rates of gun ownership, a volunteer army, and lots of veterans who probably didnt forget all of their training.

Im not implying a revolution is needed or would magically succeed without any outside support, but the situation here is much different.

Troops here are encouraged to protest unlawful or unjust orders. Any serious push to disarm the populace would probably result in mass refusals and possibly defections. I assume many defectors would bring their equipment along.

EDIT: Here's an example of refusal to follow disarmament orders: http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/159oc2/i_ama_soldier_who_was_asked_to_take_weapons_from/
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 02:36:23 pm by Swantz »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
On the other hand, Libya needed the intervention of massive airstrikes for the rebellion to succeed.

Citation needed.

Quite seriously, while the airstrikes sped up the process, they were neither required nor even necessarily useful for the massive double-agent operation that took Tripoli. Nor did they have much to do with the mountain groups who were the ones that ultimately would fight and defeat the regime's main efforts in the early days. There is no reason to believe that Libya would not have ended exactly the same way without foreign intervention, at greater cost in time and blood certainly, but the end frame being different without intervention flies in the face of how thoroughly the rebels had their opponents infiltrated and managed to call the shots for both sides of the fight.
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Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
To re-emphasize what Batt's said earlier, what about the mental health of the situation: what caused the shooter to snap and why? And how many happy pills was he sucking down the pipe before he snapped?

But it's much easier for both gun control opponents and advocates to appeal to an emotional blank check and feed into a corrosive media circus than allowing people to mourn properly and give us a clear picture to why the tragedy occurred in the first place. My personal disdain and detachment for the issue follows along this principal: gun control is a hot button topic and with the usual media circus and "liberal" hollywood stars jumping on the bandwagon (as attested to the disgusting anti-gun groups that are sprouting on youtube), pulls attention away from other facets we should be examining as a society. Point in case, I think were dealing the symptoms of a disease rather treating the cause.

Rather than continue a pointless debate I offer an even more crazy and ludicrous option: Thought Control! People kill still murder each other in many ways, many without the use of guns, and if some of the horrific crimes that we sometimes hear mentioned in places like Japan or China should stir some debate as to why people go nuts and do crazy ****. People murder their fellows using vehicles or box cutter knives. So, how long is it before anti-gun antics evolves into an assault on free speech, free thought, and individualism as well?

Since American's seem to love their guns, let's remove violence and stampede upon people's right to expression, then tell them that violent thoughts and suspicious activities are a surefire way of telling they're a potential mass murderer? Or how about legislating media that ban depictions of weapons in movies, games, and everything else while white-washing entertainment but failing to hold the media circus accountable for stirring up a hornet's nest?

When the NRA dolts and idiots who lust over gun control have an answer to why we kill each other then I might be interested in the debate, but until then, adieu.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Another school shooting in the US
Could someone (other than swantz) please comment on the gun shows thing?