Author Topic: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games  (Read 4743 times)

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Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
I realize that this is a sensitive subject, and perhaps one that's going to stir up some uncomfortable feelings, considering that most or all of us here are gamers, and also due to certain events that have happened as of late. I was considering making this a post in the recent thread about the Sandy Hook tragedy, so moderators, please feel free to move it there if you deem it appropriate.

Shooters: How Video Games Fund Arms Manufacturers

It's essay-length but very well written. Some parts of it that caught my attention in particular:

Quote

While the benefits of using licensed weaponry are clear for the game maker, the benefits to the gun maker - aside from the licence fee - are less obvious. However, just as cigarette companies used confectionery to market their products to children, so gun makers can use video games to increase awareness of their products amongst those too young to buy them. As Vaughn puts it: "Video games expose our brand to a young audience who are considered possible future owners."

But does it work?

---

"I have six pellet and BB guns," says Aidin Smith, a 13 year-old resident of Springfield, Illinois. "These include two BB guns, modelled on the M14 rifle and M1911 pistol, and two pellet guns, modelled on the AK-47 and M16. I also own an M14 BB rifle M1911 BB pistol. And I got an AK-47 rifle, M16 rifle.

"My favorite is the M1911. I shot a real M1911 when I lived in the country. I shot with my Grandpa. I love the action on it, it is like a real M1911, it recoils and springs back like a real gun. All of them are ones that are in Call of Duty. I like guns more because of Call of Duty. The M1911 is a pistol in almost in every Call of Duty."

Last year Smith took one of his BB guns to school. A teacher discovered it in his rucksack, along with a bag of ammunition and a folding knife.

"It was a Monday and I was coming [to school] from my grandpa's," Smith says. "We had gone to the target range. I accidentally left a gun in my book bag. I forgot about it and took it to school. I don't know how they found it."

His family doesn't buy the story. They believe he took the weapon in to show off to another classmate, who alerted a teacher. "It was peer pressure," says his grandfather, Mark Smith. Aidin was suspended from school for 30 days and transferred elsewhere after the summer.

"He had been exposed to Call of Duty through church friends of his," says Mark. "We gave into that because he was always playing at a friend's house. I've talked to Aidin about what's real and what's not. Plus, I took him to a gun range and showed him what the real thing can do. I told him never to point a gun at a real person and that no one gets an extra life if you shoot them."

But Aidin's enthusiasm for firearms has not been dulled by the experience. "The M16 has been in several Call of Duties," he says. "I got more interested in these guns from playing Call of Duty, it's fun to play them in a game... It's a lot easier to shoot in a game than in real life. My favourite gun is the MSR. It's a modified sniper rifle made by Remington firearms and it shoots a 338 Lapua round. It's a really nice, accurate, sniper rifle. It rarely misses a shot.

"I think once I get old enough, I'd like to own the real things."


From the last section of the article:

Quote
Many of those working on games featuring real-life weapons continue to wrestle with the issue. Only one member of a team working on a blockbuster American war game series agreed to comment, and even then only under condition of anonymity. "I don't have an issue with licensed weapons specifically," he said. "I think there is a bigger problem, which is just that shooting enemies is the core element of a large portion of games. Whether or not the guns are made up or real changes very little about that fact.

"To harp on about gun manufacturers making money off these licences is inconsequential when it comes to the influence that games have on people's purchasing behaviors. There are plenty of games with realistic but not licensed guns that still glamourise the usage of that gun. I'm sure the revenue generated from a culture that glamourises violence in general in all forms of media, including games, out-earns the actual monetary gains from the licensing of the products directly."

Likewise, for this designer, the fact that gun companies use video games to market their products to young people isn't the primary issue. "This is what marketing does and this is a function of our current culture," he says. "This is a problem with how we make products appeal to people, including products that can lead to death.

"Gun companies marketing to young players is a symptom, not the problem. It's more systemically ingrained in our culture. I think to only worry about guns' effects on people is to ignore the real problems, because these are just far more difficult to solve. They involve more than just getting rid of the gun culture in America."

For Martin Hollis, who turned his back on developing violent video games following his departure from Rare in 1998, it's more straightforward. "My moral position is that you are partially complicit with violence as soon as you have a violent narrative," he says.

That last paragraph in particular strikes a chord with me. There are very few games in my collection that don't feature a violent narrative. Most of those that do aren't FPS-based, but still, be they an FPS or a vehicular combat sim (with either a real-world fictional/historic or fantasy setting) they all have a certain common element - on-screen simulated death/destruction. Yet I consider myself to be non-violent, at least going by my everyday interactions (in my life so far, I fortunately haven't been put into a crisis situation where I've had to use lethal force (if I were even capable of doing so) for self-preservation or to preserve others' lives, so... I don't know exactly what I'd do under such circumstances). But to say that merely playing such games makes you complicit with violence... I guess that, on some level, it is hypocritical of me to play them. It's a thought that has come to mind before, but I tend to counter it with the "I can tell apart reality and fantasy, therefore I'm harmless" justification.

That said, beyond the developer and publisher, I haven't given much thought to where my money goes when I buy games. As for third parties such as arms makers, even if they only had a consultant role in the development - it makes me feel somewhat uneasy.

I'm not that used to posting about controversial issues, and I'm sure that certain parts of the article I linked to have been discussed before here many times, so if I'm opening a sore wound I apologize in advance. If anything, I think it's quite an informative and thought-provoking read.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 11:11:52 am by lostllama »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Depictions of violence are fun. It is present in EVERY media, from TVs through books to old folk tales, and its not going anywhere. I think the only problem to solve is to learn to live with it and stop pointing fingers at dubious indirect causes of crime. They do not make one morally complicit even if true, IMHO. Besides, violent crime is going down considerably in last decade or two.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
kids who are firing fake guns in games ate too busy to be firing real guns in gangs.
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Offline Beskargam

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Certainly interesting, I only had time to read your summary. after a few seconds of pondering, I realized that I did know what certain guns looks like only because I had played call of duty. (The only gun I've shot in real life is some kind old rifle with the boy scouts a long time ago). Reading the part about the kid knowing all that about guns makes me feel ....apprehensive? I am in the camp that video games don't necessarily make people more violent, but that's not really the gist of what you or the article is saying. I had never actually considered that licensing/advertising part of video game production before now.

 
Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
The Truth About Guns and Video Games
A cracked.com article by Robert Brockway on the subject. Surprisingly, he doesn't say that games are completely innocent in the matter.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
This is the equivalent of declaring that the appearance of Coca-Cola in a game promotes obesity: Possibly true, completely unprovable, of very little interest in solving any problems, probably protected speech.

Cherrypicking a kid who knows his ****, and would be equally likely to know his **** if he were into Star Wars, doesn't prove anything.
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Offline achtung

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
This is the equivalent of declaring that the appearance of Coca-Cola in a game promotes obesity: Possibly true, completely unprovable, of very little interest in solving any problems, probably protected speech.

Cherrypicking a kid who knows his ****, and would be equally likely to know his **** if he were into Star Wars, doesn't prove anything.

^This

Ace Combat games/Flight Sims license fighter aircraft, racing games license cars, fighting games license characters. Why does a weapons manufacturer licensing their intellectual property matter?
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
I wonder if the same applies to games that feature swords and shields instead of the one of the first most awesome semi automatic pistols out there...

(I will admit, I am quite fond of the idea of owning a Colt M1911. Not because of games, but the fact you're essentially holding history in your hands. The thing has been around for a hundred years. That's bloody ****ing awesome)

EDIT: On reading that cracked article (so hilarious), I noticed this tidbit
Quote
When that asshole in front of you in line at the movie theater starts shoving people around, do you imagine knocking his lights out, or rushing up to tend to the victims? Hey, maybe you fantasize about both -- but what's the order? We're punchers first and healers second.

Funnily enough, when I was involved in a fight a few months ago, my only interest was to not have this fight by putting myself inbetween my coworker and the three people he thought he could take on. Instead of fighting, I chose the opposite

But that seems to be targeted more towards an American audience (see "We're a nation of warriors, and most of us don't have a war" in the article), so what's that saying about the mindset in places OTHER than the States? That's something to consider afterall. The United States isn't the only place where games such as CoD, GTA, what have you, are sold, so why are they treating it like they are?


Other edit...
Quote
You hear a 12-year-old trash talking on Call of Duty multiplayer, you report him -- not because he called you a "fagmobile," but because he's too young to be playing that game.
...is that something we ought to be doing? What do you folks think
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 04:58:14 pm by deathfun »
"No"

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
But that seems to be targeted more towards an American audience (see "We're a nation of warriors, and most of us don't have a war" in the article), so what's that saying about the mindset in places OTHER than the States? That's something to consider afterall. The United States isn't the only place where games such as CoD, GTA, what have you, are sold, so why are they treating it like they are?
[/oneliner] Because the US has in fact become suddenly interested in this issue, and we're frankly not too interested in how other countries may be affected.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
I think the line deathfun quoted from the Cracked article is something a lot of people overlook...just what the hell are 12 and 13-year-olds doing playing these games in the first place?  I'm not saying there aren't any individuals in that age group capable of handling this sort of entertainment maturely, and clearly distinguishing between fantasy and reality, but as a rule, they're definitely not.  That's the whole reason we have the M/18+/whatever rating, to indicate that these titles aren't appropriate for individuals in that age group, and it's something that seems to be completely overlooked whenever "violent games" come up as a topic of public conversation.  Parents who allow younger children to play these games unsupervised, or without first establishing through frequent communication that they're mature enough to handle them, are either woefully ignorant of what the ratings system means, or else horrifically negligent.  That's definitely an area where we need to focus more attention.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 08:41:05 pm by Mongoose »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Agreed. Nobody except the shopkeepers pays attention to age rating these days.
This is the equivalent of declaring that the appearance of Coca-Cola in a game promotes obesity: Possibly true, completely unprovable, of very little interest in solving any problems, probably protected speech.
Appearance =/= significance. A Coca-Cola bottle lying on a shelf doesn't really matter, since few would notice it. A game (or a movie or TV show) focused on drinking Cola could be accused of promoting obesity, and not without reason (ignoring the fact that such a game/show/movie would have to be so utterly bizarre that kids would be unlikely to like it, or a kids cartoon noone would take seriously).

I think that the problem with video games is that they glorify violence. Same deal as with action movies, violent actions are made to seem manly and cool. Exactly something kids want and thus will buy. Violence sells, and unlike sex, it doesn't cause such a drastic rating jump (it always stuck me as odd, BTW. You can have people gruesomely ripping each other apart murdering innocents and getting away with it, but if you dare to show a nude person from waist down, even in a completely non-sexual context, that's an NR rating for you). A lot of pretty explosions, manly guys doing manly things, etc. This is always fun to watch (and thus sells), but kids have problems telling fiction from reality.

Games that focus on guns but don't glorify violence are either variations of some sort (SpecOps: The Line and SWAT series, each in a different way), rather niche tactical shooters (early Rainbow 6, new Operation Flashpoint and first Ghost Recon) or straight-out simulators (early Operation Flashpoint and ArmA). There isn't much market for games in which you crawl in the mud for 15 minutes only to get shot from an unknown direction, and that's how ArmA and first Ghost Recon play, especially for newcomers. Movies face similar difficulties, it's hard to make an action movie which doesn't glorify violence, and even if the first one doesn't do it, the inevitable sequel probably will.

 

Offline sigtau

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
It's not a matter of glorifying and denouncing violence--it's the simple fact that media depictions of violence have been around since ancient times, and that we can't pick on one particular instance of it that happens to be popular and declare it as the one source of it that should not exist (especially when your reasons seem to imply that it's the only source of violence).

I remember as a kid hearing many zealots around here (note: I'm in the Bible Belt) talk about how Harry Potter series of books and movies would corrupt your children and turn them from God, because it depicts the use of witchcraft, and that failure to shelter your children from it could lead to their experimentation in such things.  It's the exact same damn logic.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
violent actions are made to seem manly and cool.

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc called. You're assuming front-end when you can't assign which end it came in.
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Offline Beskargam

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
was there a point in making your statement that complex? I also don't see how that applies. It seems the same as commercials that have attractive women in them (car, beer commercials). In that do this and you will be cool or get chicks etc manner.

EDIT: an example of this. first advertisement is for old spice. women, wealth, sophistication. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 12:56:45 am by Beskargam »

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
(I will admit, I am quite fond of the idea of owning a Colt M1911. Not because of games, but the fact you're essentially holding history in your hands. The thing has been around for a hundred years. That's bloody ****ing awesome)

Actual Colt or a derivative?
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Offline Sarafan

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Ace Combat games

Hey, I always liked those Sukhois in those games, where can I buy one?

 
Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
It's not a matter of glorifying and denouncing violence--it's the simple fact that media depictions of violence have been around since ancient times, and that we can't pick on one particular instance of it that happens to be popular and declare it as the one source of it that should not exist (especially when your reasons seem to imply that it's the only source of violence).

I remember as a kid hearing many zealots around here (note: I'm in the Bible Belt) talk about how Harry Potter series of books and movies would corrupt your children and turn them from God, because it depicts the use of witchcraft, and that failure to shelter your children from it could lead to their experimentation in such things.  It's the exact same damn logic.

I don't know about your example. Harry Potter is about witchcraft, true, but the witchcraftery is only a device through which the story is told. The book deals with a wide range of moral issues and events that are more wide spread than just ways of casting spells. If anything, I found the books to promote spirituality much like churches claim to.

Violence in games and movies are not usually the same as magic in Harry Potter. For the most part, the violence isn't a vehicle to carry the message. Violence is the message. The story is weak, it's difficult to kindle empathy with the characters, and any morals feel tacked-on. This is especially true with video games. Even Freespace 2 (which I feel has done the best with the story). Freespace 2 has a great story, but it could be told without the game. Any story told during gameplay could be told by adding a few more minutes of video.

It may be that playing a violent video game doesn't make killers. However, the glut of media where where violence is its sole focus can only promote the normalcy of violence. It's true that the world has always had an appetite for violence, but it's not as bad as in the past. I hope that we're even less tolerant of violence in the future.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
FreeSpace 2's story would be a lot weaker told through any other medium. That's why it's such a great game story.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Ace Combat games

Hey, I always liked those Sukhois in those games, where can I buy one?

Contact manufacturer for further information.

If you're interested in tanks by chance there are some T-72s available starting around 50k USD from eastern europe.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 04:18:38 am by Swantz »
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Interesting article concerning guns, violence and video games
Depicting gun violence in crime novels should also definitely be looked at... :cough: