Author Topic: Shivans in Blue Planet  (Read 15156 times)

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Your talk of fractals has my inner (and outer) mathematician wincing.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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... the Shivans are a guaranteed mathematical outcome in any parallel universe throughout all temporal points.

That leads me to believe that the so-called Great Darkness is an external 'infection' with universe-destroying consequences that the Shivans can't actually deal with.  Ken alludes to this - talking about the consequences being catastrophic when discussing the randomized, non-efficient action of the Shivans.  He implies that to be rational and methodical is to be predictable and the outcome of the Shivans behaving in that manner would be essentially unspeakable.  Therefore, I think the Great Darkness is a force of chaos that destroys sentience.

Your post is quite intriguing and interesting, but I am not able to follow this last modus ponens. So if the reason why the Shivans are erratic and inneficient is because they cannot be rational or methodical (and thus predictable), why is it necessary a third force, now one of Chaos, to be detrimental to the destruction of sentience? Taking the premisse for granted, I'd say the Shivans are the perfect example of such a force of Chaos. And while I understand how the Shivans suddenly behaving rationally could be disastrous to the universe (some interesting plot point), I really don't understand your "Therefore GD is chaos that destroys sentience".

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The Shivans exist to preserve sentient life through their heuristics. The Vishnans are essentially the highest form of sentient life known following the First Apocalypse.  The Great Darkness is the counterpoint to that - while it can never destroy the Shivans, the Shivans are a mathematical tool that ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life; while it cannot fight the Great Darkness, it can't destroy it either.  Meanwhile, humanity must be the potential Nagari link by which the Great Darkness could destroy all sentient life, Vishnans included.  The Shivans are unable by their nature to accept that outcome.

Some very cool ideas behind this incoherent bungle of words, Ryan. Why are you so sure of the Shivan's purpose? And if that is true, and if it is also true that the Shivans are a "mathematical consequence of the laws of the universe", then one should question why the universe is so "anthropically principled" (or more rigorously, sentient principled). I'd also question your "ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life". Clearly the Ancients and the almost total wiping out of humanity and the vasudans falsify this notion completely.

Lastly, I think your idea about humanity being a nagari backdoor for the GD is a very interesting and worthy idea. I'll keep it in mind.

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I could be totally off base here, but I keep getting hung up on the biological parallels in the text of the Shivans and Ken which liken the universe as a whole to an immensely complex organism (The Shivans even talk about containment to the Orion arm).

That's cute. I would however not try to see the plot like that, it kinda diminishes the scope and ruins the vertigo by converting the whole thing into a simplistic organic metaphor or analogy. Given all that has been said and the jargon shared by Battuta I'd argue that they are trying to write something much, much deeper than that.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Your talk of fractals has my inner (and outer) mathematician wincing.

I didn't say anything wrong.

 

Offline Doko

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Regarding GD

Another possibility could be that since a shivan holocide anima might have to be functioning on a high cognitive level to face a threat strong enough (see. "Armed with weapons that shatter stars and tactics devised by galaxy spanning minds") it could have been infected by a the great darkness that at that point was maybe just a small nagari parasite born from subspace or a weapon/experiment with unintended consequences and when it came in contact with a really powerful shivan cluster it became something unimaginably strong.

I don't think this is the case but just throwing it out there. I mainly though of it because when playing AoA, after beating the lucifer in the alternate universe one of the vishnan mentions "A great darkness approaches" right before the sathanas jumps in.

 
Anima are dispersed once their purpose is complete. Even if you managed to compromise one it wouldn't spread.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Didn't the Lucy contain the original Shivan anima that killed the Ancients ? In which case, they don't seem to disperse once their purpose is complete at all.
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What are you basing that on?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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reactivate dormant cull component. force binary outcome: xenocultural integration or extermination. terminal protocol assessment underway.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline The E

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Animae are not created and destroyed once their purpose has been fulfilled, they do have a continuity of memories etc.

It's just that most of the time, they are slumbering, like a specialized program that is only started when there is demand, and then shut down once it is completed.
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O.o well that throws a spanner in my understanding of the whole thing.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Animae are not created and destroyed once their purpose has been fulfilled, they do have a continuity of memories etc.

It's just that most of the time, they are slumbering, like a specialized program that is only started when there is demand, and then shut down once it is completed.

Maybe, maybe not, I don't think there's any canonical information available to determine this right now.

Animae are 'born from below' which suggests they're assembled on an ad hoc basis. But nothing public right now suggests how durable they are.

  

Offline An4ximandros

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Luis Dias, the First Ancient monologue speaks of why the Shivans killed the Ancients
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Ancients 1

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months, the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

 They were an ever expanding cultural and racial hegemony purging variety in the cosmos.

 Such behavior would reduce the chances that some species may have a naturally evolved resistance to things from "beyond the walls." Who knows? maybe some alien had been born with a natural resistance to Nagari and, or Subspace parasites, or other kinds of life.

 Thanks to the Ancients' multi-galactic empire, they might as well be extinct now. Such a thing may be why the protocol has no room for mercy, it's too much of a risk to have another hegemony.

 

Offline General Battuta

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'Resistance to Nagari' wouldn't be a big deal. People don't naturally get into the network, it's not the Force or whatever. It requires some effort to set up a transmitter/receiver pair.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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No matter. The idea that the Shivans exist to protect sentience falls flat on the Ancient's example. For one, they failed to protect those who were crushed by the Ancients, and then they did not protect the sentience of the Ancients themselves. You can attribute that to the shivan characteristic of being "inneficient" and "random". And you can even attribute the shivan behavior against terrans and vasudans in the same vein (they seem beligerant, wipe them out), but then the case "shivans exist to protect sentience" is utterly slim. At most, they exist to protect the nagari stream, to stop some apocalypse, or some higher form of existence. And to do this, they will wipe any sentience that slightly demonstrates willingness to wage wars while using subspace.

Alternatively, let's just declare their behavior as something that just comes "is", without attributing purpose or teleological thinking.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Quote
Ancients 1

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months, the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

Tangentially this monologue is the reason the BP Ancients would be so different from the presentation in ASW - we really wanted to grapple with exactly what this monologue implies, and the structural factors that would enable a species to operate this way.

 
Your talk of fractals has my inner (and outer) mathematician wincing.

I didn't say anything wrong.

'Dimension' has a bunch of different definitions which only really agree on subspaces of R^n; you're using one of them (fractal dimension, determined by scaling) as though it was another (linear algebraic dimension) in a way that doesn't really make sense. In a space with fractal dimension of, say, 3 and a half, there aren't 3 and a half directions you can move in.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Leeko

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Hmm. If the Lucifer is indeed something that was created to destroy the Ancients, and later reawakened for the Terran/Vasudan cull, that would explain why we only ever see one of its designation. It wasn't created to fight us and would probably be considered obsolete by some arbitrary standard.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Your post is quite intriguing and interesting, but I am not able to follow this last modus ponens. So if the reason why the Shivans are erratic and inneficient is because they cannot be rational or methodical (and thus predictable), why is it necessary a third force, now one of Chaos, to be detrimental to the destruction of sentience? Taking the premisse for granted, I'd say the Shivans are the perfect example of such a force of Chaos. And while I understand how the Shivans suddenly behaving rationally could be disastrous to the universe (some interesting plot point), I really don't understand your "Therefore GD is chaos that destroys sentience".

Some very cool ideas behind this incoherent bungle of words, Ryan. Why are you so sure of the Shivan's purpose? And if that is true, and if it is also true that the Shivans are a "mathematical consequence of the laws of the universe", then one should question why the universe is so "anthropically principled" (or more rigorously, sentient principled). I'd also question your "ensures the ongoing preservation of all sentient life". Clearly the Ancients and the almost total wiping out of humanity and the vasudans falsify this notion completely.

Lastly, I think your idea about humanity being a nagari backdoor for the GD is a very interesting and worthy idea. I'll keep it in mind.

That's cute. I would however not try to see the plot like that, it kinda diminishes the scope and ruins the vertigo by converting the whole thing into a simplistic organic metaphor or analogy. Given all that has been said and the jargon shared by Battuta I'd argue that they are trying to write something much, much deeper than that.

Intelligence exists independently of sentience.  Or it can in theory, at least.  I suspect the Shivans are an example of this.  All of their behaviour in the canonical FS universe and now BP speaks of great intelligence, but without sentient rationality.  They operate on what appear to be pre-programmed probabilities with built-in randomness, as indicated by Noemi and Ken's discussion about efficiency, and UT makes that abundantly clear when you scan the comm nodes.  So the Shivans can be a hyper-intelligent manifestation (I hesitate to call them a species, as they are made up of biomechanical components which serve as quantum-state computers) that isn't actually self-aware or rational.  They exist merely for a purpose, which they carry out based on heuristics.  It's not rational, and therefore not predictable.

The comm nodes use a lot of biologically-analogous language that sounds like a discussion of immunity.  And the Shivans function in a manner completely analogous to an immune system.   They have sentries, that detect localized threats.  They begin with a generic response.  As the 'infection' fights the generic response, they in turn adapt to the mechanisms the 'infection' uses to evade detection or counterattack.  They develop more and more selective mechanisms to deal with the infection, until it is dealt with in a manner that satisfies their heuristics.  Then, they return to sentry state while preserving the memory and ability to counteract that specific type of threat and allow them to escalate and motivate their response that much quicker the next time.

With regard to the mathematical origins of the Shivans, I don't mean they simply manifested.  I mean that at least one species, if not many, early in the history of the universe either became the Shivans through evolution and necessity - recognizing that the GD has always existed and the only way to counter that threat was to preserve themselves as a universe immune system - or they evolved as a hyper-intelligent but non-sentient species that was able to develop technology and use it to enhance themselves.  In the second scenario, the Shivans are a probabilistic outcome in the universe.

With regard to Shivans being preservers of sentient life, again the biological analogues:  easier to cut out an infection that threatens the whole organism (one sentient species among all of those in the whole universe) than allow the destruction of the whole organism.

The Shivans appear to have no fear and face no threat from the Great Darkness.  I suspect this is because the Shivans are intelligent, but not sentient.  Conversely, the Vishnans are both.  Humanity is both, and the Vasudans are both.  The Nagari progress of humanity appears to me as a way the Great Darkness can invade the Nagari process generally.  Notice Ken also has no real fear of the GD either; his fear is for Noemi.  And in the situations where you do allow Noemi to be intercepted by the GD or allow her mental state to degrade, you get the same sequence and the end-state is the destruction of her mind.  Sentients who are rational and predictable are vulnerable to destruction by the GD.  The Shivans are an intelligence construct that are not.  Similarly, the Vishnans appear to either be unaware of or are unaffected by the GD also, perhaps because they are no longer organisms-as-such.  It makes me suspect the GD is a threat to Nagari-capable sentient but biological organisms, but its infection of them (be it the dead Ancients, the Humans, or the Vasudans) could allow it unfettered access to the Nagari network which would destroy any other, even non-physical/biological, sentient race also capable of using that network.

I don't even know that the GD is an external force to biologicals.  It seems to accompany Noemi, generally.  I suspect it may be a feature of huamnity's own minds.

Also, I don't think the inclusion of the Sync/Transcend references (and visual stylings in the nebula in UT) are just an Easter egg or unimportant part of the story.  The Sync drive interacted with subspace in a novel way.  The Nagari network exists as a part of subspace.  The Transcendant appears to have developed from an accidental consequence of the Sync drive.  The Transcendant features in a couple parts of UT (and parts of UT play out very similarly to parts of Sync/Transcend).

It's difficult to piece together the entire picture with its various plot twists from what we have so far, but I suspect the following (to summarize):
-The Shivans are the universe's immune system.  They are a biomechanical quantum-state computer that exists to predict possible outcomes and ensure the survival of sentient life in the universe, generally.  They have existed since the beginnings of the Universe, and are the oldest species (they claim as much).
-The Vishnans are a hyper-intelligent sentient race, that inherited the caretaking of all sentient life after the destruction of the Brahmans in the First Apocalypse, which I suspect was the destruction of all Nagari-linked sentient life by the GD.  I'm betting this is a cycle that repeats itself, a cycle that the Shivans exist to prevent.
-The Great Darkness is not a thing so much as a lack of thing, a force that leads to the destruction of sentient/rationalistics minds.  The Shivans, not being sentient or rational, are immune to it.  The Vishnans exist as creatures of subspace and are technically immune to it.  All sentient life, however, can link to Nagari and Nagari is the means by which the GD can jump from individual to individual and species to species.
-The Transcendant touched or interacted with the GD courtesy of Nagari interactions produced by the Sync drive.
-The Ancients, Vasudans, and Humanity are all vulnerable to the GD, and were/are all Nagari-linked.
-War between biological sentients has a calculated probability of producing a weapon or technology which, if activated, will ultimately lead to the introduction by the GD to all Nagari-capable sentient life.

This is why the Vishnans and Shivans are now bent on the destruction of humanity.  The deployment of the UEF superweapon could lead to the destruction of all sentient life, and this is why Ken says Noemi has to end the war as quickly as possible.  The weapon was originally designed to be used against the Shivans, but has become much more than that.  If the war ends with the deployment of the weapon against the GTVA, or ends by another means but the weapon is deployed against the Shivans, the consequences for all sentient life in the universe are unspeakable.  The weapon is Vishnan-inspired technology, and this is why Ken says Noemi is to use the Fedayeen and dissociate from the Elders - they are compromised by the Vishnans, and in doing what the Vishnans ask could inadvertently trigger destruction on a universal scale.

...hey BP team, am I close? =P
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 11:22:27 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline An4ximandros

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Do not respond! MP-Ryan must suffer the pain of not knowing! He must suffer like us! >;L

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Do not respond! MP-Ryan must suffer the pain of not knowing! He must suffer like us! >;L

Nonsense.  As the official GD Maker of Sense (<- see title; no coincidence that Great Darkness and general Discussion both abbreviated as GD), I deserve the answers immediately =)
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