Author Topic: Chivalry in war  (Read 10839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gray113

  • 27
  • There comes a time when the odds are against you,
Quote
A more regular Ubuntu CO might have offered a surrender, but Kyrematen? Not really likely.

Sorry but I don't buy that for a second the as duty to a captain is to the ship and crew. The battle was lost, the Indus had escaped and their sacrifice would accomplish nothing. Kyrematen wasn't stupid and like I said going down fighting would be a simple act of bravado.

I have already said that I accept the reasons for the TEVs destroying the Yangtze and the Jovian forces as total war protocols had been enacted, my point was that now from a UEF standpoint the destruction of defenceless TEV forces is now a valid military strategy because of the total war strategy. From my point of view (getting back on thread) chivalry now has no place in this war. For both sides this war is about survival and in order to survive both sides will have to do thing that some will consider wrong or dishonourable. In this case I would like to see this reflected in possible choices during acts 4-5 especially where it regards revenge attacks on TEV forces.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
What is lacking here is a surrender protocol that might be acceptable to both parties. Something on the order of "You have 30 seconds to get to your escape pods". And in 30 seconds the ship is toasted. But at least some attention would be given to the unnecessary killing of people.

I don't think it would be applicable in Delenda Est though. Time was the essence there, and there wasn't any possibility to risk the gambit with a moral fair play at the time.

 

Offline Gray113

  • 27
  • There comes a time when the odds are against you,
In case of any confusion the Jovian forces that I am referring to are those lost during the retreat from Jupiter not the Katana and Altan Orde

 
"You have 30 seconds to get to your escape pods". And in 30 seconds the ship is toasted.

Oh ****, I'd be so dead. Sprinting is not my strong point  :D

 

Offline Crybertrance

  • 29
  • Conventional warheads only, no funny business
"You have 30 seconds to get to your escape pods". And in 30 seconds the ship is toasted.

I'd be dead to... Need to increase bigbaddaboom-time-variable to 3 minutes for fatasses like myself.  :lol:
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
In case of any confusion the Jovian forces that I am referring to are those lost during the retreat from Jupiter not the Katana and Altan Orde

Those are beyond any kind of "kindness". They were trying to get their subspace engines online and they were about to get so in a few minutes. Sekr might not know with sufficient accuracy their available timing so they have to shoot as fast as possible, and get away as fast as possible.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
And given the fact that Laporte spends about a week in the Red Room and nothing especially important happens in that time (that we know of), I don't think processing a captured frigate would have delayed anything.  All you need is a transport, a boarding crew, and some fighters to escort it back to the node.  Nothing important.
Steel is a psychologist. The Wargods are heroes and by annihilating them so effortlessly he strikes what is presumably a huge morale blow to the UEF.

We also can't discount the possibility that Steele already knows about Laporte, and that he didn't just risk a battlegroup to kill four Frigates, but to kill her at any cost. MORPHEUS is serious business.

Steele hates bloodshed as much as anybody else. He just isn't afraid of it if it means preventing more bloodshed in the future.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Steel is a psychologist. The Wargods are heroes and by annihilating them so effortlessly he strikes what is presumably a huge morale blow to the UEF.
I don't disagree with that at all.  I'm just saying that even if the Imperieuse had been willing to accept surrender, Leinonin wouldn't have been inclined to after what the cruisers tried to pull.

 
We also can't discount the possibility that Steele already knows about Laporte, and that he didn't just risk a battlegroup to kill four Frigates, but to kill her at any cost. MORPHEUS is serious business.

While I guess we can't discount the possibility Steel is aware of Laporte, but I find it highly unlikely as the conversation between Sam and his father at the end of WiH R1 implies that the UEF itself only found out about Noemi recently due to Vicmouth's report.

 

Offline Flak

  • 28
  • 123
Back in Delenda Est? I don't think Laporte was the main target, she was just a pawn back then that just happened to be 3 squares away from the final tile and Steele somehow able to miss.  Simms and Captain Sorensen would be considered more valuable targets.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
We also can't discount the possibility that Steele already knows about Laporte, and that he didn't just risk a battlegroup to kill four Frigates, but to kill her at any cost. MORPHEUS is serious business.

While I guess we can't discount the possibility Steel is aware of Laporte, but I find it highly unlikely as the conversation between Sam and his father at the end of WiH R1 implies that the UEF itself only found out about Noemi recently due to Vicmouth's report.
The UEF knew about Laporte long enough for the HoL to use her as a courier to the Fedayeen. Given that Steele had an Elder in his pocket even before that, I think we can safely assume that Laporte's existence if not Vicmouth's entire report was leaked to him.

 
"You have 30 seconds to get to your escape pods". And in 30 seconds the ship is toasted.

I'd be dead to... Need to increase bigbaddaboom-time-variable to 3 minutes for fatasses like myself.  :lol:

I kind of assumed the escape pod systems in FS ships are mostly automated, so when you order an evacuation all the seats in the command deck get swooshed into the nearest escape pod, Thunderbirds style. Also explains why the door on the Hermes is so ridiculously huge.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Now there's a thought-provoking article that brought tears to my eyes.

It's a particularly interesting one, given the treatise on war that BP:WiH provides.

I destroyed the GEFs without a second thought in the convoy mission, killed the UEF pilots with basically no hesitation, saved the GEF habitat on the asteroid, and accepted the Carthage's surrender (but mopped the floor with the rest of the GTVA forces on scene, disabling the corvettes).  I didn't have so much a problem with Fedayeen actions as beliefs - I questioned their motivations.

I stuck with being a rational actor through most of Tenebra.

- Detonating the GEFs I did without a second thought.  Not only were these people terrorists who used violence against civilians, their escape would have thrown off the careful operation.  As the only options were allow the escape or kill them, I killed them.

- Killing the UEF pilots was distasteful but necessary.  Letting my wingmen do it, however, would just be trying to rationalize avoiding responsibility (particularly as I would have had to issue orders to them to do it).  If it had to happen, better to take responsibility.

- In the case of the GEF habitat, taking out MacDuff felt like public service.  Taking out the GEF fighters was necessary.  Destroying the habitat was not.  I had options and exercised them - no need to make thousands of people pay for the actions of their leadership with their lives.

- As for Her Finest Hour... interesting mission, and it let me put my opinions on the war itself into practice.  I felt the war was unnecessary, and a military victory by the GTVA would be untenable, even before playing UT (which just reinforced my belief).  Therefore, I resolved to play the mission in such a way to make it clear to the GTVA that they would pay dearly for a military solution to reunification.  I therefore destroyed the gas miners, disabled and destroyed the corvettes (though I think one ended the mission just disabled and not destroyed), destroyed the cruisers and mopped up the fighters.  I accepted the Carthage's surrender, though.  When she surrendered, it saved thousands of lives on board, it guaranteed a morale boost among the UEF, it took her out of the war, and it provided possibly quite valuable GTVA technology.  There was really no reason not to accept the surrender and every reason to do so, unless you let Laporte be entirely motivated by revenge (I didn't).  Meanwhile, the rest of the utter destruction in the mission deprives the GTVA of valuable assets in the war - and let's face it, the UEF is basically fighting a guerilla conflict by this point.  The GTVA has the raw military power to crush the UEF in a stand-up fight if they pulled assets from throughout the GTVA.  They're playing a PR game, and I played the strategy much like the North Vietnamese and Afghanis have done when facing superpowers - make the cost to your enemy, however slight it actually is, an unacceptable loss in the political and social realm.

In my view, all of my actions were rational responses to the available scenarios.

Now, Sitgler's action was an irrational response if you strip away his emotions and humanity.  There was literally no downside from a purely tactical/strategic point of view to wiping that bomber and his crew from existence.  And this is why, even in total war situations, the humanity of the actors involved is paramount.  It is that very humanity that makes reconciliation after the hostilities possible.

The trouble in BP is that we never see that humanity really come out of Steele.  That is what drives my Laporte to invoke pure cost-benefit rationalism and psychology and reject some parts of her own humanity.  Not that I see her as beyond redemption - I think the Carthage proves that its possible to retain your humanity and still carry out strategic-level operations sometimes.

Regardless, the BP conflict between the GTVA and UEF is not a total war scenario.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 01:20:21 pm by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

 Remember all of the escape pods she tagged from trying to escape the logistics ships?  I'd call that a war crime.

I doubt it. The people in those pods were knowingly violating their own surrender--which is a war crime. Those escape pods were directly endangering the lives of every Federation soldier near the Agincourt. It was also deemed likely that the pods were being used for warfighting purposes rather than mere survival or noncombatant purposes--the fact that it coincided with a fighter launch to attack the Federation fighters supports this conclusion. Laporte was also ordered to do it, and expressed her hope that the pods were empty and not filled with panicked deckhands during the incident, on record.

Quote
On that note, I spared the Carthage in the game.  Why?  Because it was a s**tload of GTVA advanced tech and a semi-worthwhile space-frame that could be used for anything.  Not to mention high ranking prisoners that could be interrogated and prove useful later.  It was a decision purely about the acquisition & denial of resources to the enemy -  "Saving lives" wasn't a thought.  Those people put on the uniform, they made the choice, even if they were conscripts.

For you, I suppose--and it's valid reasoning. But especially for Laporte, moral reasoning/ethics were specifically why she spares the Carthage (should the player choose that outcome). She wanted to destroy the Carthage, badly, but she knew that it wasn't necessary--that those 10,000 lives she felt nothing for still mattered in that they were people and their deaths were not at all necessary, even if she would have felt personal satisfaction in doing so.

Putting on a uniform is one thing, but killing a soldier that can no longer fight after she has surrendered--and when there are no unusual circumstances in which the Federation can't take prisoners and would thus have to choose between killing them or letting them fight again--is another. It's the difference that fighting a war without hate makes.


No way to say anything about the cruisers because broadcasting "I surrender" and then setting engines to max makes your intent pretty obvious.


Well, maybe it's just my interpretation, but it seems like the Insuperable (or was it Kyoto?) gets obliterated a few seconds after that line. I'm not sure if the comms officer had time to begin executing the order, or if the light corvette even managed to start accelerating before being skewered by blue beams.

I thought Kyremaiten's refusal to surrender simply came from despair--a kind of honorable suicide or something. She was so devastated by what had just happened--along with the rest of her crew, including Karen and Olefumi--that they kind of wanted to just die at this point; to go down fighting rather than surrender and hope for mercy from the people who just massacred thousands of your friends and comrades in front of your eyes, spending months/years in the enemy's prison camps as POW's.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:25:52 pm by SaltyWaffles »
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
- In the case of the GEF habitat, taking out MacDuff felt like public service.  Taking out the GEF fighters was necessary.  Destroying the habitat was not.  I had options and exercised them - no need to make thousands of people pay for the actions of their leadership with their lives.
If your transport gets destroyed, then destroying the habitat becomes your only option to save Earth from an extinction event. Is it still a war crime in this case ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Valiran

  • 25
- In the case of the GEF habitat, taking out MacDuff felt like public service.  Taking out the GEF fighters was necessary.  Destroying the habitat was not.  I had options and exercised them - no need to make thousands of people pay for the actions of their leadership with their lives.
If your transport gets destroyed, then destroying the habitat becomes your only option to save Earth from an extinction event. Is it still a war crime in this case ?
No, it's a sick necessity.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.  It's horrible, but the alternative is worse.

 
does it count as a war crime to keep a bunch of civilians captive in a legitimate military target
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Tu Quoque isn't a good argument, PhantomHoover.

  

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
does it count as a war crime to keep a bunch of civilians captive in a legitimate military target
Does it count as a war crime to have industrial complexes, which are valid military targets, in Luna cities where a lot of civilians could get hurt ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline ^Graff

  • 26
Well, maybe it's just my interpretation, but it seems like the Insuperable (or was it Kyoto?) gets obliterated a few seconds after that line. I'm not sure if the comms officer had time to begin executing the order, or if the light corvette even managed to start accelerating before being skewered by blue beams.
I've played Delenta Est about a dozen times, and I only saw that line once.  Usually the cruiser gets killed at the same time as its sister ship, and the captain is too busy being at 27k to say it.
Quote
Originally posted by Anduril:
Dang, Graff, you good.  :)