Author Topic: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap  (Read 17328 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Phantom hoover pretty much covered it, the theme of the thread was misogyny, then it was smiley etiquette.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
well a) the topic of discussion was still misogyny, b) comparisons like that are almost always misleading (analogies are even worse than smilies imo), c) look calling her a ***** doesn't make you a misogynist but you can hopefully understand why it's problematic as a general thing
It's problematic when men call their girlfriends and random women *****es. It's also problematic when they call women that for acting independently.

On the other hand, calling mean women *****es is no more sexist than calling mean men dicks.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
right but the thing is that the latter use is inevitably tainted by the former and you're better off just not using it in that context at all

also stop using that analogy, it doesn't work for exactly the reasons you just described
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
I'm still using it in an entirely different manner (one that is at least as common as the former). If said mean woman gets more offended for the reason you described, then I'm happy. It's still an insult, after all.

You don't like that analogy? Then here's another one: if somebody punches you in the face, it's okay to hit them back. Same goes for insults.

EDIT: And let's not forget that women use that term all the time in the exact same way I am.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
augh jesus christ that analogy is even worse

ok basically it's like if i stole your hat and sold it to a drug dealer for a pocketful of mumbles such are promises, all lies and jests; still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest i think i should get some sleep now actually
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:02:13 pm by PhantomHoover »
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
augh jesus christ that analogy is even worse
its even better bro :nod: :p :D :pimp: :cool: :v: :) ;7 :lol: :banghead: :yes: :no: :eek2: :ick: :confused:
fear my smileys
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:13:08 pm by Apollo »
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Phantomhoover, you're not making a good point here. Single line posts telling the other person he's wrong is a terrible way to debate. Especially since all you're going to do is turn the other person off because you're obviously not engaging. Do better, or don't do at all. And use a bloody full stop from time to time.

FWIW, this is a topic I agree with Apollo on. If it's a man, he's a dick. If it's a woman, she's a *****. That doesn't imply hatred for fifty percent of humanity, and if it offends people, well, unpleasant language is designed to offend people. Deal or ignore.

[EDIT]OK, he added... more to that post, so it's not just single line now. Not that it makes any sense, but hey.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
i'm not telling him he's wrong, i'm telling him to lay off on the analogies because thinking with analogies is a very good way of making yourself wrong
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline deathfun

  • 210
  • Hey man. Peace. *Car hits them* Frakking hippies
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
augh jesus christ that analogy is even worse
its even better bro :nod: :p :D :pimp: :cool: :v: :) ;7 :lol: :banghead: :yes: :no: :eek2: :ick: :confused:

Now that's a topic transition!
Well it is, but I won't do anything about it

Quote
if somebody punches you in the face, it's okay to hit them back.

Somebody murders a family member of yours, so it's perfectly okay to murder theirs
It follows the same logic of what you said
So I'll just leave this here
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
"No"

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Well there is an argument to be made that removing words from the lexicon because they have a tainted meaning does mean that the words wife and mother have to go too.

Both words have been used far more than ***** to keep a woman "in her place". Especially when used with the word good.

The big problem with trying to prevent the use of the word ***** is that there's little to replace it with. Pretty much every other insult is either worse or is meant to be used against men.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:40:59 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
i'm not telling him he's wrong, i'm telling him to lay off on the analogies because thinking with analogies is a very good way of making yourself wrong
It would appear that you disagree with my position.

augh jesus christ that analogy is even worse
its even better bro :nod: :p :D :pimp: :cool: :v: :) ;7 :lol: :banghead: :yes: :no: :eek2: :ick: :confused:

Now that's a topic transition!
Well it is, but I won't do anything about it
Since his post had no substance, I decided to respond in kind.

Quote
Quote
if somebody punches you in the face, it's okay to hit them back.

Somebody murders a family member of yours, so it's perfectly okay to murder theirs
It follows the same logic of what you said
So I'll just leave this here
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
The difference is that a) that person's family member had nothing to do with yours getting killed, and b) that's a far more extreme application of eye-for-an-eye morality. A rapist deserves to be raped and a murderer deserves to be murdered, but those acts are so horrible that no human can be allowed to perform them, even in retribution.

On the other hand, that type of morality works fine for lower-level things like insults and fistfights.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Switch the genders in this editorial and then tell me it's acceptable
Jesus Christ. Somebody fire this *****.

c'mon son

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Well, I'm just going to say again that I agree with Apollo. People are putting words in his mouth and making assumptions that I think are unjustified. And now I have to go.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
I applaud and endorse your reaction to this article's blind and horrifying perpetuation of our ****ed up gender system, but I contest your decision to deploy a gendered slur that is a product of that same system in the course of condemning it.

Pretty sure this thread is going to go to **** now  :blah:
By behaving in such a blatantly misandrist manner she earns similar retaliation. Besides, I used ***** in the sense of "bad person", not any of its other, more sexist meanings.

She didn't behave in a blatantly misandrist manner and your second sentence is literally impossible.

I applaud and endorse your reaction to this article's blind and horrifying perpetuation of our ****ed up gender system, but I contest your decision to deploy a gendered slur that is a product of that same system in the course of condemning it.

Pretty sure this thread is going to go to **** now  :blah:

And you wonder why more people don't self-identify as feminist. :doubt:

Way to suck at selling your message, dude.

That was a totally reasonable and multipolar remark, complete with lots of good reading. I'm not sure what you'd want changed about it though I am open to suggestions. The link isn't as on point as it could've been, but the prediction was certainly dead on :toot:

well a) the topic of discussion was still misogyny, b) comparisons like that are almost always misleading (analogies are even worse than smilies imo), c) look calling her a ***** doesn't make you a misogynist but you can hopefully understand why it's problematic as a general thing
It's problematic when men call their girlfriends and random women *****es. It's also problematic when they call women that for acting independently.

On the other hand, calling mean women *****es is no more sexist than calling mean men dicks.

It completely is. 'Dick' is not a term with any historical or contextual oppressive power. You can't argue that 'dick' and '*****' are on the same level, nor (at least in the US) 'dick' and '****'. I recognize that this is a nuanced argument that relies on a lot of underlying arguments I haven't presented here, so I'll just say that if you want to fight the kind of horror that kicked off this discussion, it certainly doesn't cost you anything to consider where words come from.

I hate to bust out the hoary race analogy, but it's one that's intuitive for a lot of Americans: if the author here were a black person laughing at the assault and attempted hanging of a white man, 'fire that nigger' would not be the correct response. 'Fire that asshole', definitely.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:51:54 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Switch the genders in this editorial and then tell me it's acceptable
Jesus Christ. Somebody fire this *****.

This is the wrong way to engage with the problem. I hate to bust out the hoary race analogy, but it's one that's intuitive for a lot of Americans: if the author here were a black person laughing at the assault and attempted hanging of a white man, 'fire that nigger' would not be the correct response. 'Fire that asshole', definitely.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
She didn't behave in a blatantly misandrist manner and your second sentence is literally impossible.

Connotation is personal. Denotation is universal. His sentence is no more impossible than the fact I use "cute" only to refer to small children and fuzzy animals; his connotations to the word are personal and not universal.

This drive to retire certain words because of perceived connotations that you occasionally embrace is always so very eager to ignore that while definition is usually universal, the use of language is inherently a far more squishy subject. It has a consensus method at best, no shared foundation at worst. As you cannot build a consensus, there's no way to build an argument for it.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
I feel like this is a really tough discussion to have because it's hard to say '***** is the wrong word here' and explain why (which is not a simple thing, and touches on a lot of cultural hot-button issues) without it seeming like censure. I don't blame anyone for using the word; we live in a culture with a deeply ****ed up gender structure and a whole lot of poison swirling around that structure. Nobody's immune, certainly not me. I'm not trying to say you're (for any value of 'you') a bad person.

But we're having this discussion because someone wrote something appalling about a rape victim. Clearly, words aren't powerless; not all words are equal. It's easy for us to be outraged by assholes perpetuating rape culture over there, in this horrifying crime, that appalling article. It's hard to acknowledge that these people are in many respects ordinary and representative, and that if they - individuals, groups, entire communities - can **** up this hard, so can we.

People get defensive and aggressive the moment this topic comes up, particularly on HLP. And I understand that reaction. It probably feels like hypervigilance, like policing, like cultural hypochondria. But once you've started to see the patterns of language and behavior that define a lot of our culture (and for me, it didn't come from reading feminist blogs or reading feminist books; it was a barrage of laboratory data and grim, grim experiments that overturned the idea that we really understand our own attitudes), a lot of stuff that once seemed ridiculous starts to become clear.

We've had some pretty decent progress on this front here in recent years. I'd like to see it keep going and I hope we can continue this conversation without it boiling down to antagonism and defensiveness.

Connotation is personal. Denotation is universal. His sentence is no more impossible than the fact I use "cute" only to refer to small children and fuzzy animals; his connotations to the word are personal and not universal.

This drive to retire certain words because of perceived connotations that you occasionally embrace is always so very eager to ignore that while definition is usually universal, the use of language is inherently a far more squishy subject. It has a consensus method at best, no shared foundation at worst. As you cannot build a consensus, there's no way to build an argument for it.

Fortunately, this is untrue - we can actually quantify the behavioral effects of words on targets! This is part of the body of scientific research that really got me invested in the topic a few years ago.

The meanings that individuals assign to a word are in many ways irrelevant. What's important is the network of exposure-driven semantic associations that the word can trigger. These networks operate in neural systems which are not directly regulated by what we think of as the conscious mind, and they manifest in behavioral patterns that actively defy the egalitarian goals and norms most of us subscribe to. These meanings - and the behaviors they trigger - are taught by cultural exposure, without consent or endorsement; they're statistical, frequency-driven aggregates of the messages floating around us.

This is why we can't decide what a word means: most of the meaning is assigned by the cultural consensus, received by neural systems we can't easily regulate, and expressed through channels that we're largely unaware of but which turn out to be surprisingly consequential. It's a hell of a thing.

e: I feel like another really good point to examine here is the pervasive application of '*****' to mean 'a male rape victim'. There's all kinds of ****ed up semantic connectivity here: to rape a man is to make him like a woman. This is pretty awful for all parties and it ties into the problem male rape victims face wherein they feel they can't report the crime because it will emasculate them.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 10:16:31 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Fortunately, this is untrue - we can actually quantify the behavioral effects of words on targets!

A basic question, then.

If it affects the target, is it not serving a useful societal purpose should she ever browse this forum? This is clearly something about which some level of shame and a feeling of being put in one's place could be quite usefully employed. It is after all something the writer should probably not do again and her behavior is clearly in need of modification. Some level of negative corrective behavior is as much a requirement for our current society as understanding is.

Or are you implying that people aren't sophisticated enough to determine the target? That argument might be true, I grant.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
I applaud and endorse your reaction to this article's blind and horrifying perpetuation of our ****ed up gender system, but I contest your decision to deploy a gendered slur that is a product of that same system in the course of condemning it.

Pretty sure this thread is going to go to **** now  :blah:
By behaving in such a blatantly misandrist manner she earns similar retaliation. Besides, I used ***** in the sense of "bad person", not any of its other, more sexist meanings.

She didn't behave in a blatantly misandrist manner and your second sentence is literally impossible.
I personally found quite a bit of misandry in that article, though I will concede that she insulted female sexual assault victims as well.

How, when I am not a misogynist, and I use that word on men in addition to women, is it completely impossible for me to use the word ***** in a non-sexist manner?

Quote
well a) the topic of discussion was still misogyny, b) comparisons like that are almost always misleading (analogies are even worse than smilies imo), c) look calling her a ***** doesn't make you a misogynist but you can hopefully understand why it's problematic as a general thing
It's problematic when men call their girlfriends and random women *****es. It's also problematic when they call women that for acting independently.

On the other hand, calling mean women *****es is no more sexist than calling mean men dicks.

It completely is. 'Dick' is not a term with any historical or contextual oppressive power. You can't argue that 'dick' and '*****' are on the same level, nor (at least in the US) 'dick' and '****'. I recognize that this is a nuanced argument that relies on a lot of underlying arguments I haven't presented here, so I'll just say that if you want to fight the kind of horror that kicked off this discussion, it certainly doesn't cost you anything to consider where words come from.
***** can also refer to a mean women. This definition is not inherently sexist and is at least as common as its other meanings. Some people still perceive it as sexist, but that is not the fault of the speaker.

Quote
I hate to bust out the hoary race analogy, but it's one that's intuitive for a lot of Americans: if the author here were a black person laughing at the assault and attempted hanging of a white man, 'fire that nigger' would not be the correct response. 'Fire that asshole', definitely.
I figured you'd bring this up at some point.

That hypothetical black author would have anti-white bigotry equal to the Klu Klux Klan's anti-black bigotry. 'Fire that nigger' would offend many, and it would likely be said by white racists-but he would have earned it. By the same token, a black man is perfectly justified in throwing racial slurs at a racist white man.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

  

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
Re: Use of Weapons - Split from gender swap
Language evolves. For all their histories or past associations, the modern terms are effectively, for the vast majority of people (male and female), gender specific synonyms. You've noted yourself that "****" has different meanings and significance in different geographic regions - the same is true of words in different times.

And that is my problem with your previous post. It's stuff like this - jumping on tiny infractions that the majority of us see as meaningless and telling us we're acting, speaking or thinking misogynistically - that give Feminism its bad name these days. You've said in the past that just about everyone in western society is a feminist according to the basic tenents of gender equality: equal pay, equal rights, things like that. And that's true. But people shy away from identifying as such because of the association with these kinds of arguments.

And yes, lab data and all that is great, very interesting I'm sure. But there has to be a better way of solving these problems than trying to censor people because that is just flat out not going to work.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp