[MP-Ryan]

**** Russia.  **** Putin.  **** their whole goddamn government and the people supporting it.

No, this post is not about the human rights travesty that is the homophobic law receiving the Olympic kerfuffle, though I wholeheartedly support a boycott of the Sochi games on that front too.  No, this is about a human rights tragedy with a significant death toll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23777201

Chemical weapons attacks have killed hundreds on the outskirts of Damascus, Syrian opposition activists say.

Rockets with toxic agents were launched at the suburbs of the Ghouta region early on Wednesday as part of a major bombardment on rebel forces, they say.

The Syrian army says the accusations have been fabricated to cover up rebel losses.

The main opposition alliance said that more than 1,000 people were killed by the attacks.

Activist networks also reported death tolls in the hundreds, but these could not be independently confirmed.

It is also not clear how many died in the bombardment of the sites and how many deaths were due to any exposure to toxic substances.

Last year a senior Syrian defector, Nawaf Fares, told me in Qatar that the Assad government would not hesitate to use chemical weapons if it wanted to. However, today it denies any guilt and instead says this is a media campaign by its enemies.

Video footage showed dozens of bodies with no visible signs of injuries, including small children, laid out on the floor of a clinic.

Ghazwan Bwidany, a doctor treating the injured, told the BBC the main symptom, especially among children, was suffocation, as well as salivating and blurred vision.

The ****ing obstructionist Russians wear this one.

I don't think NATO forces should be fighting foreign domestic wars.  I don't think NATO should support Islamist rebels who don't know against the devils we do.  I DO think that democracies have an obligation to prevent despotic governments from using CBRNE weapons against their populaces, however.

So, like I said.

**** Russia.

Oh, and someone string Assad up by his neck already.

[StarSlayer]

This article might explain why MP's so incensed, since the original linked in the OP had the Russian issue barely as a sidenote.  I had to do some extra checking to really understand whats got him stirred up.

[Lorric]

Hold up. How do we know that they didn't stage it?

I've always thought the media very bias in favour of the rebels in this conflict, it doesn't feel like objective reporting to me at all, like they'll just swallow anything they say.

In a coldly logical way, killing hundreds of innocents to bring in international aid and end the conflict would save lives.

[The Dagger]

I hate to say it, but I'm with Lorric on this one.

[MP-Ryan]

The Russian issue isn't their support of the Syrian government on the reports about chemical weapons, its the Russian's continual and consistent opposition to intervention in Syria against Assad (not necessarily on the side of the rebels).  Russia is the primary reason NATO has not militarily intervened in order to protect civilians.

Again, it's not that I support the rebels, it's that Russia is a big part of why an awful lot of innocent people are currently dead, dying, or at risk of death in Syria at the hands of the government OR the rebel forces.

At this point it really doesn't matter which side in Syria used chemical weapons; what matters is that they WERE used and much of that has to do with the continual obstruction by a single foreign government with economic, military, and political ties to the Syrian government (which has already been documented to have fired on the civilian populace).

So - no matter who pulled the trigger, the Russian government should be the ones wearing this.

[NGTM-1R]

Hold up. How do we know that they didn't stage it?

If the rebels were able to deliver chemical weapons by rocket in large enough numbers to accomplish this, Assad would have died during his visit to Damascus last week, rather than there having been merely a carbomb outside a building he was in. This isn't Israel and they don't have an Iron Dome system to intercept the inbounds.

[Luis Dias]

Oh look MP just found out how eggregious Putin and his acolytes are. Good on you!

Of course, this has little to do with how outrageous we in the safe world are. This has everything to do with the geopolitical power that only Assad can provide to the Russians. Never forget the russian naval base in Syria, its largest outside Russia and its door to the Mediterranean. Losing Syria to the Americans and Israelis would mean a free road to them into Iran, and their hegemony in the Middle East.

And it's not as if the westerners want to do anything about it as well. Syria is a mess right now, with multiple oppositions fighting each other, from secularists to islamists, from Sunnis to Shiites, etc. No one wants another visit to the ME hellhole.

So Syria will continue to burn until either Assad gets too tired to fight back and commits a mistake, or the opposition is silenced. This is probably the start of several decades worth of a civil war. Angola is probably the example here. The result will be millions killed and a country shattered to bits. Then, when it will wake up from its nightmare, it will have oil for the Assad family to hoard for themselves.

I'm glad people still get indignated with all this, but I'm really fazed out at it. It's like a cliché movie that I have just seen too many times.

[Lorric]

The Russian issue isn't their support of the Syrian government on the reports about chemical weapons, its the Russian's continual and consistent opposition to intervention in Syria against Assad (not necessarily on the side of the rebels).  Russia is the primary reason NATO has not militarily intervened in order to protect civilians.

Again, it's not that I support the rebels, it's that Russia is a big part of why an awful lot of innocent people are currently dead, dying, or at risk of death in Syria at the hands of the government or the rebel forces.

I understand that the Russians have an agenda. But at the same time, I think the point is valid.

If you're going to use this to justify action, you need to get in there and confirm it went down as has been stated before you take that action.

Remember Iraq and the phantom WMDs?

[MP-Ryan]

Oh look MP just found out how eggregious Putin and his acolytes are. Good on you!

I've been incensed at Russian foreign policy for some time now, I just haven't posted about it much.  Chemical weapons are a very big reason to start.

[MP-Ryan]

I understand that the Russians have an agenda. But at the same time, I think the point is valid.

If you're going to use this to justify action, you need to get in there and confirm it went down as has been stated before you take that action.

Remember Iraq and the phantom WMDs?

Lorric, maybe you've missed the whole Syrian conflict, but both the rebels and the government forces have been killing each other - with large numbers of civilians caught in the middle - starting in 2011.

Intervention by NATO and the UN to protect civilians* (not to oust Assad and install a rebel government) has been completely justifiable for almost two years.  Chemical weapons use has been documented on at least four occasions - at least one of which points to the Syrian government as the culprit besides this one.

There are virtually no parallels between this conflict and the justifications for Iraq.  The Russians are protecting Assad, and in the process ensuring that UN and NATO military intervention is impossible without a major international incident.  Hence the title of the thread.  This is not a thread extolling the virtues of the Syrian rebels over the government; this is a thread about why the Russian government deserves absolute condemnation for their position.

[Luis Dias]

Well I just can't sync with all this rant. Yes, a thousand and a few hundreds died, which means that some more thousands died too. A horror story.

But it is far from being the only one, it's just the most mediatic right now. As I said, we are looking at a million plus war casualties here.

It's also a little itchy. Two days ago, arms inspectors from the UN arrived at the country. Now this happens, precisely at the worst time for Assad to do this kind of ****. Something very slimy is happening, and I don't think we will even ever know what really went on there.

To blame the Russians is cool by me, but again never forget the wider picture here. Russia won't drop Assad and China too. The consequences of leaving Assad to burn with either an Al-Quaeda ran country or an "american-friendly" government are at a scale where 1300 people dead do not matter one jolt. These kinds of reasonings are cruel and inhuman, but who watched to what happened in Chechnya should not be surprised here. A man who lets his own people die so he gets what he wants won't suffer a bad night's sleep over other countries' people.

[The Dagger]

Intervention by NATO and the UN to protect civilians

There probably wouldn't be a war if NATO just stopped sending weapons.
This conflict escalated thanks to them and if someone was searching a geopolitical gain it's probably NATO. Look at the arab spring:
Egypt - pro-NATO gouvernment -> non-violent protests
Syria - non pro-NATO gouvernment -> armed revolution
Lybia - non pro-NATO gouvernment -> armed revolution
Am I the only one seeing a patron here?

[Luis Dias]

Intervention by NATO and the UN to protect civilians* (not to oust Assad and install a rebel government) has been completely justifiable for almost two years.  Chemical weapons use has been documented on at least four occasions - at least one of which points to the Syria
n government as the culprit besides this one.

That would be awesome.... in theory.

Who dafuq ever wants to get into that slimepit of gruesome warlords fighting each other every day, Iraq was a ****ing paradise by comparison to what Syria would ever be. No, no one will ever want to step one foot there, so what happens now and for some years from now on is western countries making fist signs against the bad bad russians who don't let the good democratic chaps do what they must do and save the people from Assad's terror. However, they are absolutely relieved for such an incredibly amazing scapegoat to do nothing about it.

Think man. Obama is not exacly popular right now. Would starting a war against another country in ME really help him? Is Europe really ready to anything other than euro-struggling with itself? Who would go there? Canada? Ah.


E: oh and yeah Dagger has a point too. It's not just the Russians who are selling weapons to Assad. We all know where the rebels are getting theirs. And where is HLP's post about the massacre that happened last week in Egypt by the same numbers? Right.

[MP-Ryan]

As of June, we have an official UN death toll around 100,000 people.

The point is not that people died in a chemical weapons attack.  The point is that the Russian government has enabled the situation in Syria to devolve to the point where either side feels they can get away with a chemical weapons attack in a war that has already killed far more people than it ever should have, because the forces that would typically intervene to halt the carnage won't with the Russians in the way.

I realize China is parked in the background as well, but Russia needs some serious pressure brought to bear to either get involved, or get the **** out of the way.  The death toll is quite high enough and shows no signs of abating - and lets not forget that if chemical weapons are flying in Syria, the Israelis are going to get nervous.  That adds a whole new dimension to this mess.

[NGTM-1R]

But it is far from being the only one, it's just the most mediatic right now. As I said, we are looking at a million plus war casualties here.

The argument that simply because we cannot save everyone we may not attempt to save anyone should never have weight.

[Lorric]

I understand that the Russians have an agenda. But at the same time, I think the point is valid.

If you're going to use this to justify action, you need to get in there and confirm it went down as has been stated before you take that action.

Remember Iraq and the phantom WMDs?

Lorric, maybe you've missed the whole Syrian conflict, but both the rebels and the government forces have been killing each other - with large numbers of civilians caught in the middle - starting in 2011.

Intervention by NATO and the UN to protect civilians* (not to oust Assad and install a rebel government) has been completely justifiable for almost two years.  Chemical weapons use has been documented on at least four occasions - at least one of which points to the Syrian government as the culprit besides this one.

There are virtually no parallels between this conflict and the justifications for Iraq.  The Russians are protecting Assad, and in the process ensuring that UN and NATO military intervention is impossible without a major international incident.  Hence the title of the thread.  This is not a thread extolling the virtues of the Syrian rebels over the government; this is a thread about why the Russian government deserves absolute condemnation for their position.

Oh I know this. But we don't go jumping into every conflict in the World like this playing peacemaker.

If we do go in, I want the stated reason to be genuine. If it's to protect the civilians, then just forget the alleged chemical weapons attack, and say it's for the civilians (yes I know Russia is in the way). If it's for the chemical weapons attack, make sure it really happened. The Russians can't object if you do what they want and find it really happened.

[MP-Ryan]

Lorric, please re-read the thread.  You appear to either have missed or be misinterpreting the context of the rant/argument.

[Luis Dias]

That was not an argument for inaction, but a call for context here. Where is the outrage for what happened last week in Egypt?

And this idea that the Russkies are being bad for not letting NATO solve this is naive at best. At best. You should be aware that the Russians are mostly the arms dealers of Assad right now, that his military is the most similar thing Russia has to an army inside the ME, that this is basically a proxy war between EUA/Israel and Russia / China right now for power in ME? To be enraged that they denied NATO to "invade" Syria (as if) is silly beyond belief.

No, Russia won't let go. Nor will the States. Both are commiting huge chunks of weapons to the proxy civil war.

[Scotty]

Oh I know this. But we don't go jumping into every conflict in the World like this playing peacemaker.

In this instance, it's not just "jumping into every conflict".  The use of chemical weapons and the hundred thousand dead makes it much more than everyconflict.

[Lorric]

Lorric, please re-read the thread.  You appear to either have missed or be misinterpreting the context of the rant/argument.

It's all about Russia, right?

I think I've probably said all I need to say, since I'm more concerned with people just swallowing anything the rebels say fuelled by the media and letting a wave of emotion override objective analysis. If the main point is Russia, I am no longer needed here.

Oh I know this. But we don't go jumping into every conflict in the World like this playing peacemaker.

In this instance, it's not just "jumping into every conflict".  The use of chemical weapons and the hundred thousand dead makes it much more than everyconflict.

Well yes, the chemical weapons certainly change it if it happened, but wars have raged on and on in other countries for years and you don't even hear about it.