Author Topic: **** Russia (and Syria too)  (Read 35402 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
There is a point in which we get far too caught up in the potential for games and lose sight of the situation on the ground, which is this:

The Syrian government has used chemicals weapons on civilians.
The Syrian rebels have used chemical weapons on government forces and civilians.
The Syrian government is backed militarily and politically by Russia and China.  This has occurred prior to the conflict and from its very beginning.
The Syrian rebels are backed militarily by NATO countries, with limited political support.  This began shortly after it became apparent that Russia would not cease arming Assad's forces.
100,000 Syrians have died, including many children and other civilians.
There is no end of the conflict in sight.
Diplomatic solutions were tried and failed.  Russia and China, theoretical proponents of a diplomatic solution, haven't crafted any resolutions to that effect so no NATO country has actually even contemplated exercising a veto.  In fact, Russia and China have done nothing to end the conflict aside from obstructing the UN and simultaneously continuing to arm Assad to murder Syrian civilians and rebel forces equally.
UN military involvement, backed by NATO countries, has been obstructed at the level of the Security Council.
Syria is located in one of the most unstable geopolitical zones on Earth; any spillage of chemical weapons attacks to neighboring states is quite capable of triggering catastrophic war.  This is not likely at the present moment, and remains unlikely so long as the deterrence for the use of chemical weapons remains high.

This is not a proxy war.  The US gains nothing of importance from a rebel victory in Syria and in fact such a victory would be more geopolitically destabilizing.  Similarly, the US gains nothing by ousting Assad.  Russia has a vested interest in seeing the Assad regime preserved, as does China.  So what is the incentive for NATO intervention?

Pull out a map.  Note the location of Damascus.  Look at the casualty figures.  Then look at the dates of the four documented chemical weapons attacks that have occurred in Syria.  And then look at their locations.

This is a catalytic conflict, unless it is ramped back to the state of limited civil war that it began in.  That is why you see NATO countries reluctantly gearing up to act - and for all the bluster from the US and France, it IS reluctant.  NATO is not enthusiastic about this response, but they are even less enthusiastic about open war that could spill across the entire Middle East in short order.  Nobody wants to find out the consequences of a chemical munition landing in Jerusalem.  NATO's sole objective is to put the genie back in the bottle and make sure there is no further use of chemical weapons.  That's why no forces aside from missile strikes and air power are being committed; that's why the nations without missile capability are not committing their militaries to action.

Quote
But that is in and of itself a strawman. The broken structure of the Security Council is because of the power of the veto, something which France, the US and UK don't want to give up. Arguing that the UN is useless while simultaneously hamstringing them is rather disingenuous at best, and outright Machiavellian at worst.  Especially when, as I pointed out earlier, I'm suspicious about whether the resolution that was vetoed was one deliberately chosen to be unpalatable to the Russians and Chinese.

NATO vs the SC veto is a circular argument, as you're demonstrating.  NATO would not exist without the SC veto; no country with a veto can afford to give it up unless all the others do; countries which are not a part of NATO can't afford to give up the veto; NATO countries can't give up their vetoes if the non-NATO countries retain theirs; etc

Note that neither the Russians nor the Chinese have proposed any actionable measures - diplomatic or military - to halt the killing of civilians and the use of chemical weapons.  All they have done is obstruct.  You're talking like both nations are acting in good faith, which clearly they are not.  Although the US/Britain/France group may have proposed military solutions which Russia and China did not like, at least they have proposed something.  The Russians and Chinese appear complacent to allow the conflict to continue unfettered with their preference being Assad win by any military means available to him.  That is not a reasonable or defensible position, though the reasons why both countries are happy to pursue that policy are abundantly clear.  I just can't wrap my head around your lack of condemnation of them for it.

It's not that the NATO countries have outright rejected diplomacy led by the UN - it's that no leadership is being shown by the countries who openly oppose any military action on the diplomatic front.  If you haven't been paying attention, there have been numerous attempts at non-UN SC-led diplomacy since 2011.  They have managed nothing.  In fact, the diplomatic line in the sand over chemical weapons use has now been crossed four times.  It's time to do something about that.  If Russia and China want a diplomatic solution, the ball is in tjheir court (as it has been in the Russians court since 2011; they hold considerable sway over the Syrian government).

It is worth pointing out that a catalytic war in the Middle East doesn't actually hurt the Russians or Chinese; in many ways it can be geopolitically beneficial to both nations.  They have no vested interest in seeing this conflict end; whether its the consequences, the chemical weapons use, or the civilian deaths, neither of those governments cares.  What they do care about is if Assad loses and by some miracle a non-Islamofascist pro-Western stable government ends up running Syria - that (unlikely though it is) would harm both of them.

If you're not Russia and China right now, the most dangerous course of action at the moment is no action at all - the status quo has a high probability of catastrophic consequences.  Even if the conflict does not spread, the loss of civilian life and the use of chemical weapons must be denounced and demonstrated as unacceptable by some means with weight.

The part that concerns me is not what happens this week or next week, but next year and the year after.

The thing is, whilst this may indeed not be about picking sides, if only the Chemical Weapons ability is hit, and Assad still manages to push out the rebels, the West will be left to deal with a country whose leadership has been subject to an attack on their own soil by the Coalition. Such a Government would be almost impossible to establish Diplomatic links with in the future, especially with Russia and Iran backing it up.

If those strikes happen, then a side has been chosen intentionally or not, because the Coalition simply cannot afford to leave Assad in power after attacking his forces.

This is untrue.  Many Western governments have poor diplomatic ties to many countries.  The West can strike Assad's forces - and the rebels - with no concern as to diplomatic consequences.  Post-war Syria is of little consequence to the West.  It's importance lies in the current state of war and its geographical position.

There is nothing stopping NATO from hitting Assad's and the rebel forces, yet leaving their leadership intact.  This is about consequences for behaviour, not ending the conflict.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 12:16:23 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Flipside

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
I'm not quite sure what can be 'untrue' about something defined as a "concern", a misplaced concern, perhaps, but I understand what you are saying.

I think, had not the wording of the Bill before Parliament been more or less 'We are determined to punish those who use Chemical Weapons, and once we've found out it's Assad, we will take action', it may have fared better, but it wasn't.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)

Pretty much what I said earlier.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
So. Here's what I understand to be fact:

1. Chemical weapons were used in an attack.
2. Nobody appears to know for sure who ordered or carried out the attack.
3. The victims of the attack were civilians and/or rebel forces (?).

So the question is, lacking solid proof who was behind point 2, what happened with point 3? Is it the Syrian govt blatantly attacking their opposition? Or is it a perverted combination of a suicide bombing and a patsy, carried out by the rebels against their own side, so that international forces, blaming the obvious perpetrator Assad, would take up the battle that the rebels just don't seem to be able to bring to the point of victory?

Unfortunately, either of those situations is possible and "logical" considering the players involved here, and therein lies the problem. Obama drew a red line on the use of chemical weapons. It seems like he's willing to take the appropriate action against whoever crossed that red line - he just doesn't know "whodunnit".
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Offline karajorma

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
This is not a proxy war.

The US have been backing the rebels from day one. So that's kinda hard to believe.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
And Russian & Iran have been backing the Syrian government.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
So it's a proxy war then. As I was saying.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
So it's a proxy war then. As I was saying.

For it to be a proxy war, the proxy has to be acting in the interest of the side it is supposedly a proxy for.  The supporting party must have a definitive benefit from the proxy winning.

While this holds true on the Russia/ Chinese / Iranian front - Assad's regime is favourable to all three, and the rebel faction is not - it is distinctly false on the NATO front.  A rebel victory gives NATO a minor narrative win - the people triumph over the dictator - which quickly devolves to an essentially hostile Islamofascist government that is no better than Assad if the current rebel politics continue.  Getting in a "nana nana boo boo" at the Russians isn't worth that price, and isn't the motivation.

At this point, NATO countries are only arming the rebels to prevent an absolute curb-stomping by Assad's forces in the hopes that a better option than either Assad or the current rebels is going to come along.  Meanwhile, the rebels are keeping Assad sufficiently distracted from the civilian population; without them, the civilian death toll would be much higher.

So, it's not even remotely a proxy war.  Korea was a proxy war.  Vietnam was a proxy war.  Afghanistan (circa the 1970s and 80s) was a proxy war.  Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and Syria are not.  Just because forces in a civil war are being supported by external powers does not make that conflict a proxy war.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
taking away an enemy's support is a definitive benefit.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
Exactly. It's pretty obvious what the goal of America in the Arab Spring was. Just cause it didn't happen the way they wanted it to, doesn't mean that there wasn't a goal.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
taking away an enemy's support is a definitive benefit.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious what the goal of America in the Arab Spring was. Just cause it didn't happen the way they wanted it to, doesn't mean that there wasn't a goal.

And this might be a pretty good approximation of the situation on the ground if we were talking about the situation in 2011.  It is September, 2013, however, and there is no benefit to any NATO country if the rebels win today.  Egypt and Libya proved that much.  This is not a proxy war.  It is not a small part of a greater war being fought between NATO and Russia.  Russia wants Assad to win because they have an established relationship with him and he opposes Islamic militant organizations that Russia has been fighting for decades.  NATO, at this juncture, doesn't want Assad OR the rebels to win at this point in time.  Both NATO and Russia have the same self-interests in mind in the Middle East - they don't want yet another friendly training ground for Islamic militants (like pre-2001 Afghanistan was).

Nothing about the Syrian conflict is so simple as a proxy war, manufactured conflict, whatever.  The situation today has diverged heavily from anyone's plans, and we are now to the phase where the powers-that-be are making things up as they go along with the hope of salvaging some semblance of their original goals.

-Russia's objective is to delay, obstruct, and support long enough to hand military victory to Assad, or - if that becomes impossible - to see a negotiated settlement where Assad's government remains in power with minimal concessions.  China's goal is similar.
-NATO's goals are to (1) prevent further chemical weapons attacks that have the potential to escalate this conflict beyond Syria's borders, (2) ensure civilian casualties are kept to a minimum, and (3) pray for the emergence of a Western-friendly faction that is not Assad and is not friendly to Islamic fundamentalists either and then help them win.
-Iran's goal is to either keep Assad in power, or see him replaced with a brand of Islamic fundamentalism compatible with their own.  They do not want to see a pro-Saudi Islamic regime emerge, because that's actually worse for them than a pro-Western regime.
-Assad's goal is to decisively end the conflict with military force and crush any future movement in the process in order to remain in power.  He has to do this without giving Western countries an excuse to bomb him into oblivion, which he has strayed very close to after his forces deployed chemical weapons.
-The rebels goals are mixed.  In the short term, they are a very loose coalition of people who want Assad out.  In the long term, they represent different Middle Eastern factions with very different ideas of what post-Assad Syria should look like.  Anyone who thinks they can predict what a rebel victory would look like with any certainty is both lying and likely selling something bridge-like.

In short, it is a cluster****.  A cluster**** in which chemical weapons are being used, and which is likely to spread beyond the borders of Syria if they continue to be used - nevermind the human tragedy of the death toll thus far.  Priority number one for any country who doesn't want to see catastrophic war in the Middle East is to stop the chemical weapons use as quickly and decisively as possible.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
It's interesting how this situation is really bringing to the public eye how much the rebel factions in these Arab Spring uprisings (often comprised largely of Muslim Brotherhood members) are actually less-desirable from a Western civilization POV than the not-quite-benevolent dictatorships they are ousting / trying to oust. It seems like the world is unprepared for a situation where a war is going on between two "bad guys". "Who do we support?" "Why oh why did I mention that blasted red line?" That sort of thing. :p
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
In short, it is a cluster****.  A cluster**** in which chemical weapons are being used, and which is likely to spread beyond the borders of Syria if they continue to be used - nevermind the human tragedy of the death toll thus far.  Priority number one for any country who doesn't want to see catastrophic war in the Middle East is to stop the chemical weapons use as quickly and decisively as possible.

And given that one of the major reasons why it's such a cluster**** is because of the West's support of the anti-Assad faction, why should we trust them to not make things worse? For instance why are we assuming that bombing and use of cruise missiles won't actually make it easier for the rebels to get hold of Assad's chemical weapons?
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
I think our goal/motive is simply to do remove a Russian/Chinese/Iranian ally.

that and we sort feel like we have to do something because we drew a line in the sand and they crossed it.

we drew that line because that was our position in Iraq, and you know, we will not be found to have been wrong about anything involving Iraq.

it very much feels like China/Russia are drawing their own line in the sand, and that we are reacting to that. "oh you aren't going to tell us what to do, were ****ing 'Merca"
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:23:56 am by Bobboau »
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
This whole thing is about a line being crossed - that of the unwarranted use of ABC weaponry. Obama, in hindsight, made a mistake in stating that the use of chemical weapons was a red line, because enforcing the "punishment" for crossing that line - once we figure out whodunnit - will have consequences that nobody wants.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
All that MP's reasoning is forgetting about the corridor Israel - Syria - Iraq - Iran - Afghanistan - Pakistan.

For one, if you want to isolate Iran, there's nothing like putting Assad out of his mysery.

For two, we are not entirely aware of Israel's underlying motives here. They fear both outcomes, but they might be calculating the situation with a lot more data than we are and reaching solutions quite different from ours.

Also, if you have a "cluster****" in our hands, then any kind of solution to the problem is almost by definition problematic itself. This is why people are skeptical about it. Do we really know what we are doing? How about be a little bit more certain of what we are doing before doing something at all?

Because if my memory serves me right, this excitment over going after the baddies even despite the fact of having nebulous evidence against them didn't exactly fared much better the last time around.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
Double post because God almight himself posted his own thoughts on the matter.

Oh sorry, didn't mean God, I meant Adam Curtis:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/THE-BABY-AND-THE-BAATH-WATER

Quote
Much of the debate about whether to intervene in Syria or not is taking place in a strange ahistorical vacuum. As with so much debate about humanitarian intervention the underlying world view is of a simplified story of bad dictators and good, well intentioned westerners who must somehow intervene to stop him.

But the truth is that America has a very complicated relationship with Syria which stretches back over sixty years.

Go read it NAU.

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
I'm all over it.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
Just heard a "ex-CIA" saying he knows (and listened to) a phone call in Syria where some high-level officers were discussing the order from Assad to bomb the rebels with a CW, them being very nervous with the order but still carrying it out.

What a situation. Just ponder on this last paragraph for a second and what it means. This means that we all know *wink wink* that the US spies everyone's phone calls, including Assad. But this topic is just too ****ing hot to anyone high up in the Pentagon chain to ever go public with it. While everyone knows this, it still must remain something unsaid.

So imagine for a second that they did actually got hold of such a phone call. If Obama heard this call (and others), the case is slam dunk to him, but he can never go public at it. However, if the phone call is bogus they also can't invent any of this **** to the public. So what do these guys do? Get a "ex-CIA" guy to "leak" this information to the media. Thus officially no one really spied anyone. However, unofficially now everyone knows that this phone call exists, and the case is slam dunk. Anyone who still tries to present any skepticism in the media is seen as a "naive" guy who isn't "in" on the latest "leak".

Fortunately, US citizens are by far the most paranoid bunch I've ever encountered in the nets, and so I'm pretty sure the acceptance of this latest story is probably low.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: **** Russia (and Syria too)
And given that one of the major reasons why it's such a cluster**** is because of the West's support of the anti-Assad faction, why should we trust them to not make things worse?

We shouldn't.  There's nothing wrong with asking questions and keeping an eye on the situation.  What I've been getting at is that we have now reached the point where the conflicting sides in Syria need to be reminded that there are consequences to violating international law and norms.  That doesn't mean we shut off our brains when it comes to the execution of that reminder.

Quote
For instance why are we assuming that bombing and use of cruise missiles won't actually make it easier for the rebels to get hold of Assad's chemical weapons?

We're not.  Or I'm not.  You'll note I'm not advocating for indiscriminate use of cruise missiles and other weapons.  I've been very careful to refer to precisely targeted strikes, and not just by missiles fired from off-shore.  You can read those comments again if clarification is needed.

In point of fact, I've pointed out multiple times that both the government and rebels in Syria have now been implicated in four documented chemical weapons attacks.  As far as I'm concerned, both sides are fair game for the reminder at this juncture.  The best way for Western forces to try to minimize this conflict is to punish both sides when the line gets crossed.  I don't know that not-arming the rebels is an option at this juncture - it appears abundantly clear from the earliest moments in 2011 that the way Assad is going to deal with any dissent is through murder.  If the West were to stop arming the rebels at this point, we can expect the Syrian government to continue slaughter of both rebels and non-combatants until there isn't much of an opposition left.

The best hope for a diplomatic solution that ensures protection of civilians from government and rebels lies i neither side gaining a military victory in the field.  If that happens, Syria is ****ed.  A government field victory means a lot of dead civilians; a rebel field victory means another Islamofascist government (or more civil war) in yet another country in the Middle East.  Nobody wants that.
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