Author Topic: America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!  (Read 50551 times)

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Offline phreak

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich

Hmmm... that picture has been flipped left-right - the drivers' hatch is on the left side in M113 APCs. :D



I got that from the Jane's defense website.  They got the picture from the Royal Army.  They drive on the wrong side of the road and in the wrong seat of the car.
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Offline Sandwich

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by daveb
Well, according to Fallout Tactics, he'd need a Strength of 9 to do that. Or be taking post-apocalyptic drugs. Sandwich, can you fill us in here? I didn't see any power armor in that picture...


9 out of 10? Yeah, sounds about right. That thing was soo heavy that my arms were literally trembling for a whole day or 2 afterwards. :D

Shooting is out of the question for two reasons. First, it doesn't have any sort of convienient handgrip with pulling (or pushing, I should say) the trigger in mind. And second, the kickback would probably break my wrist and hip.

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Originally posted by daveb
Why France? Chances are you'd have to surrender for something within a few months anyway  ;)


ROFL!!!


Quote
Originally posted by PhReAk
I got that from the Jane's defense website.  They got the picture from the Royal Army.  They drive on the wrong side of the road and in the wrong seat of the car.


But if they drive American-made M113's, they have the drivers' compartment to the left of the engine, period. Left-right alterations are much easier when done to cars than Armored (note: there's no "U" in that word!!!) Personnel Carriers.

And that looks to be a 60mm mortar, although it's missing some parts. Perhaps its a make I've not encountered (entirely possible).
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Offline CODEDOG ND

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9


Is it YOUR business what so-and-so catches from screwing their unmarried neighbor? First of all, these were all illegal BEFORE VDs flourished, second of all once you're an adult, YOU'RE A ****ING ADULT. CAPABLE OF TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF. If you're not, you belong in a mental institution, not society. If a fully capable adult can't take measures to avoid getting diseases from ****ing, or can't stop on their own if need be, then it's their own fault. Having the law lead them by the hand is insulting to the intelligence, as well as despotic. It frankly isn't your business if I bang 30 hookers a night and catch every below-the-waist disease known to man. It never is, no matter who you are. Sure, if I'm sleeping with you, I have a moral obligation to tell you I'm screwed up, but that's a personal moral issue, not a legal one, and my partners can take measures to find out, anyway (such as the aforementioned blood tests). Just because there's no law regulating my ucking habits doesn't mean I'm necessarily gonna run around humping anything with two or more legs anyway. If it does, like I said- I'm not a consenting adult, I'm an imbecile. Still my problem, not yours.


Yes but there still people out there that use there VDs to infect others purposely.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Top Gun

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND


Yes but there still people out there that use there VDs to infect others purposely.

..and the Law caters for it by holding them to account (2nd degree murder if it's fatal). STDs are now no longer a cause to discourage sex with anyone, anywhere in any circumstance FULL STOP

 

Offline Zeronet

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by PhReAk



I got that from the Jane's defense website.  They got the picture from the Royal Army.  They drive on the wrong side of the road and in the wrong seat of the car.


NO! Its the correct side and the right seat of the car.
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Offline CODEDOG ND

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by Top Gun


..and the Law caters for it by holding them to account (2nd degree murder if it's fatal). STDs are now no longer a cause to discourage sex with anyone, anywhere in any circumstance FULL STOP


And then again here comes the moral clash.  :/  

Most of these arguments are based on a POV.  A pov establishes a persons morals.  My morals may believe that killing somebody b/c he knows too much is justified, while yours may not, but would both of us be truely wrong?  That is a moral question in itself.  To make a full argument you would have to assume certain morals are true and justified, like killing civilians, but then you would have to have a like definition of civilian.  

 I know a lot of people that go **** around and then get stuck with some whore b/c he was stupid know to knock her up.  Government discouraging premartial sex is more or less protecting the people from its own stupidity.  Government is there to watch over the people to make the logical and more rational desicions, however, a lot of the times it doesn't do that.  Maybe they will fix that when they program some robots to run governments that are based on logical programming.  But then it might end up like the matrix.:doubt:


Ug, I hate going to work because then I have to read like 2 more pages before I can really post to anything.  But it is fun, I never find anybody that can bring up an interesting debate at home.  I hope nobody has any hard feelings to each other in all this posting.  :)
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline CP5670

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Actually, the best thing would be for the government to completely ban any form of sex now that artificial methods are starting to come out. This will happen at some point in the future anyway, but I want it sooner. :D Robots running human affairs would certainly be an incredible step in the right direction, but I unfortunately do not think any of us will live to see that happen. (it is inevitable at some point though)

And regarding morals, bin Laden's morals dictate him to kill the heathens who do not believe in Allah, so that would make him equally right as any of us. (it is based on morals) Stop using moralistic arguments. :p :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2002, 01:12:44 pm by 296 »

 

Offline phreak

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, the best thing would be for the government to completely ban any form of sex now that artificial methods are starting to come out. ... but I want it sooner. :D



WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

thank you
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Offline Top Gun

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND


And then again here comes the moral clash.  :/  

Most of these arguments are based on a POV.

Yes the POV that people should have the right to decide wherther to participate in a (so lang as percautions are taken) harmless activity and not have the POV of conservative christian Prigs rammed down their throats.


 
Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND
I know a lot of people that go **** around and then get stuck with some whore b/c he was stupid know to knock her up.  

I'm not even going to dignify that steaming crap bucket of an argument with a response.


Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND
Government discouraging premartial sex is more or less protecting the people from its own stupidity.  Government is there to watch over the people to make the logical and more rational desicions, however, a lot of the times it doesn't do that.  

But discouraging premarital sex (where marriage is a religious ceremony in itself) just so happens to fall directly in line with the point of view of Christian Zealots. I think we both know that Abstinence Propaganda has nothing to do with prevention of Unwanted Pregnancies/STDs (effective contraception made sure of that) and everything to do with forcing Conservative moral values on people.



Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND
Maybe they will fix that when they program some robots to run governments that are based on logical programming.  But then it might end up like the matrix.:doubt:

So long as they're not a Proprietary technology and don't lock you into a single vendor;)

 

Offline Top Gun

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, the best thing would be for the government to completely ban any form of sex now that artificial methods are starting to come out.

And I guess that eating would have to be banned as well because we'd have all neccessary nutriens Injected into our veins. Although I'd love to see you suggest to a feminist lobby that the future of humanity lies in women lining up to be A.I.'d like dairy cattle:D

 

Offline CP5670

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Exactly, or the current human would be modified to work using a more efficient system; things must turn out that way because all other probable systems lead to contradictions. Not sure which one (out of food and sex) will go out first, though. I don't know who is stupider, the religious nuts or the sex addicts. :p :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2002, 01:18:20 pm by 296 »

 

Offline LtNarol

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
CP, some days i worry about you...then there are days like this when i think you're just down right nutty :p

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by daveb


Back this up with a single shred of evidence. Name _one_ region of any kind the US has "imperialized" in the last 100 years. I'll give you a hint : the answer is zero.  The US is entirely _not_ expansionist, even in the "benevolent" sense.


I'm thinking Hawaii for some reason... :)
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Offline phreak

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


I'm thinking Hawaii for some reason... :)


Hawaii was imperialized in the 1880s-1890s

little over 100 years ago
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Offline Stryke 9

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
CP: If society ever gets anything close to that point, people will quite literally self-destruct. Riot in response to the new codes, bust into some North Dakotan silo, nuke DC, and split Amerika into about 98 separate tribal districts would be my guess.

But yeah- that is completely insane. We treat cows that way because they have no choice in the matter, and we don't do it for the cows. A life like that isn't living, it's simply waiting to die.

And you're trying to say that your arguments aren't opinionated? Any argument is. It's what makes us human. Any truly objective arguer would have to concede that even the most preposterous statement is as possibly true as any other, and that's just not good form.

Anyway- the purpose of law is to allow more than two humans to coexist without massacring each other wholesale over a pebble or something. Laws exist even in anarchic societies, and are usually self-imposed. But the purpose of law is merely to prevent us from harming each other, not to hold our hands. After a certain point of life, you don't need Mommy, but you still need at least a self-imposed regulatory system in the society in order to keep you alive. If the law takes on a life of its own, oversteps its bounds such as it does in Amerika, that's fascism of the most despotic sort, plain and simple. I don't need a law to tell me not to cross the street right in front of a sppeding car- but without the legal ability to if I so chose, I'd be no better off than a veal calf. I don't care if it's common sense. I don't care if it's protecting me from myself. I don't need to be protected from myself, because I, for one, am competent enough to understand the implications of what I do and accept whatever consequence comes. And I'm willing to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they are not drooling infants- apparently unlike you, referring to others but never to yourself. There's much meaning in the unanimous cry of the "conservative" neo-fascists: "Protect them from themselves!" as opposed to "Please keep me from doing this, to rotect me from myself!". Once again, it boils down to personal arrogance. Do you really think you're smarter than everyone else? Moreover, would you understand that, in the world you and your kind idealize, these same codes would apply to you, and more, following someone else's "common sense" that you don't find so sensible? Really.

 

Offline CP5670

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
CP: If society ever gets anything close to that point, people will quite literally self-destruct. Riot in response to the new codes, bust into some North Dakotan silo, nuke DC, and split Amerika into about 98 separate tribal districts would be my guess.


If they do it currently, yes. Cultural conditions will gradually change over the centuries; these are most certainly not static.

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And you're trying to say that your arguments aren't opinionated? Any argument is. It's what makes us human. Any truly objective arguer would have to concede that even the most preposterous statement is as possibly true as any other, and that's just not good form.


I said most objective. Using certain logic axioms and rules, many contradictory statements (where similar true and false stuff exists in the same system) can be eliminated. Of course every statement is indeterminate if nothing is presumed, but the whole system of argument is structured around logic in the first place and thus I am assuming that those rules would hold. At least I am not using moral nonsense. :p

Quote
Anyway- the purpose of law is to allow more than two humans to coexist without massacring each other wholesale over a pebble or something. Laws exist even in anarchic societies, and are usually self-imposed. But the purpose of law is merely to prevent us from harming each other, not to hold our hands. After a certain point of life, you don't need Mommy, but you still need at least a self-imposed regulatory system in the society in order to keep you alive. If the law takes on a life of its own, oversteps its bounds such as it does in Amerika, that's fascism of the most despotic sort, plain and simple. I don't need a law to tell me not to cross the street right in front of a sppeding car- but without the legal ability to if I so chose, I'd be no better off than a veal calf. I don't care if it's common sense. I don't care if it's protecting me from myself. I don't need to be protected from myself, because I, for one, am competent enough to understand the implications of what I do and accept whatever consequence comes. And I'm willing to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they are not drooling infants- apparently unlike you, referring to others but never to yourself. There's much meaning in the unanimous cry of the "conservative" neo-fascists: "Protect them from themselves!" as opposed to "Please keep me from doing this, to rotect me from myself!". Once again, it boils down to personal arrogance. Do you really think you're smarter than everyone else? Moreover, would you understand that, in the world you and your kind idealize, these same codes would apply to you, and more, following someone else's "common sense" that you don't find so sensible? Really.


I am not even sure if this mindless ranting is worth dignifying with a response, but here goes anyway.

First of all, stop thinking of the individual human as something in itself; it is just another part of a greater whole (as I said before, use the cell analogy), and the society is one of the successive stages to the whole. There is nothing "special" about the individual human as you seem to think, since it is yet another unit in the continuing sequence of the complexity of intelligence. It is almost certain that some millions of years in the future, humanity will have either become a single organism in some way or died out completely (evolved or otherwise); the question is when. You are quite obviously a typical product of the current generation and its accompanying cultural paradigm, in which common moral values and individual freedom is considered to be the ultimate. This thing that every human has an inherent right to freedom, as you seem to think, is a bunch of nonsense; people have an inherent right to nothing and everything. Citizens are given some liberties so to keep them quiet (or else they will rebel) and, more importantly, because it allows the society to continue advancing in terms of knowledge (freedom of thought). Upcoming social eras will likely allow for the circumvention of both of these issues, and the concept of freedom will essentially have changed from its current meaning (think Hegel's type of freedom). It might be "fascism of the most despotic sort," but it is far better than the alternative. You are the moralistic anarchist around here, right? You might want to read that old thread on politics (the "oh hell" one). There cannot be any long-lasting species without a consistent advance to a unified organism; the change is the critical part rather than the end.

One interesting thing is that if all national governments ban something popular, say sex, by law right now and then lift the ban after seven or eight decades, nobody will have any interest in whatever was banned anymore. These things are quite variable and are changing constantly based on outside cultural influences. The original purpose of government and law is completely irrelevant here; change in this direction is inevitable as long as a government exists since a static system is bound to collapse (check out Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy). Besides, you agreed just a few posts ago that if everyone started killing themselves, the government should intervene, and now you post this. Talk about inconsistency. :rolleyes: Also, nobody really cares whether you want this type of thing or not; fact is that there will be some supporters in the world, and these men will end up rising to the top. (a large unit competing against disorganized individuals) Of course I see that the laws would apply to me, but considering what I do all day, they would not affect my life at all. However that is of no importance here - like I said, the opinions of individuals do not really matter in the large picture. The actions of large groups can in certain cases change the course of social history but these are fairly predictable. I do not like common sense and therefore try to avoid using that in arguments, so I don't know what you are talking about there. And how in the world could I use "someone else's common sense;" this is one of the strangest statements I have heard. And I am probably quite stupid compared to most people here, but this last post of yours has shown me that I at least have more sense that you do. Really. :p

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CP, some days i worry about you...then there are days like this when i think you're just down right nutty :p


:D ;7
« Last Edit: July 14, 2002, 11:15:19 am by 296 »

 

Offline Styxx

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
The only society that can give complete freedom to its people is no society at all, or in other words, an anarchy, which in turn would stall the progress of knowledge.


THE CULTURE!!! :D :D

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, the best thing would be for the government to completely ban any form of sex now that artificial methods are starting to come out...


Hmm... Definately not the Culture... :doubt:

Ah, no mention of the Culture should go without this: :D

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Offline Stryke 9

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
We are the Borg... you will be assimilated!

Yeah. All that is quite logical, rational, and would make sense in a twisted sort of ideal. But you're not taking the nature of the beast into account- sure, it would make SENSE to eliminate sex. That doesn't mean doing it wouldn't still end up being the death of the species. People are irrational in the extreme, and the only way to understand them is to be able to factor in that something else, even if it isn't hard to understand. We're not math equations, or, at least, we are, and bloody complex ones. So complex that nobody quite gets the details of how we work, and only the most successful leaders have figured out how to work with us effectively.

You misread me. I don't think there are ANY "inherent rights" because a right is a privelidge given by the government to good children. The "right" to speech, in the form outsiders take it, is not a right, any more than being able to throw a Molotov cocktail at the pigs is a right. There's nothing to grant, because it can't be denied. The governments of the world try to, and that spells their eventual doom.

You assume, as most non-anarchists do, that we want to pick up the first gun we see and start shooting. Lack of a government FORCING people to be decent does not mean that nobody can on their own. Disorganized? The anarchist Yippie movement used to be one of the more highly organized, influential powers in the nation! What you see NOW is disorganized- a hundred million demoralized people trying to survive in a nation too wishy-washy to fully concede its own totalitarian rule, and thus secure power, and too greedy to be decent enough to die quietly. Everyone's miserable, most people, given half a chance, WOULD go start shooting everyone at random, and you can't get a group of people to agree on one set of pizza toppings, much less a political philosophy. In contrast, the "disorganized" anarchist movements of the 60s and early 70s were highly attuned to one goal, could talk freely and exchange ideas, and did as they pleased. They understood that not just ONE ideology was going to get anyone everywhere, but only that they needed to follow the same general goals of securing their personal freedoms. They lived, in fact, outside of the law, and yet were nicer to each other, by all accounts, than anyone in any authoritarian society. Disorganized? You really need to read up on what you're talking about. People are only organized when they can gather behind a common cause of their own volition, live together of their own free will. NOT when forced to get along by a quasi-dictatorial government.

And I never said the government should STOP people if they started killing themselves. I said that, if that was what the people wanted, the government should HELP them. Put good use to all those nukes in Nevada.

How 'bout if someone told you that computers and TV were deleterious to your mental health, confiscated all means of electronic communication, and replaced all TV programming with propoganda of the dullest sort? It's far from unlikely in any authoritarian movement, and probably the closest analogy I can find, knowing as little as I do about your habits.

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx


THE CULTURE!!! :D :D



Hmm... Definately not the Culture... :doubt:

Ah, no mention of the Culture should go without this: :D



euh... Is this a part of The Plan™? I don't remember it being a part of The Plan™.   :D
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Offline Kellan

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America, Happy Fourth, now wake up and smell the roses!
Oh man, thirteen pages? :sigh:

Give me a few days to deal with all this. Looks like the "Oh Hell" thread a few weeks back, but to go back to the original topic, I havea comment which is so obvious it has probably been picked up already. I'll say it nevertheless, because that's the kind of person that I am. :)

Anyway, does this whole link to terrorism not go back, basically to the fact that the shooter was a Muslim Arab? I mean, when that kid crashed the little plane into that building shortly after 9/11 and his suicide note expressed sympathy for Osama bin Laden there was still no suspicion that he wasa terrorist - not only because of his age, but because he was a white, non-Muslim American.

Now I know that the Jose Padilla proved Americans can be terrorists ( :ha: ) but he was a Muslim too...

My point is this: had the shooter on July 4th not been a Muslim Arab but a somewhat unhinged LA resident, or a guy from Denver, or from France, say - would it automatically have been linked to terrorism? What we're seeing and experiencing is some sort of ethnic stereotyping of Arabs and Muslims as anti-American terrorists. For example, one of my friends is the son of an Iranian asylum seeker and following Septempber 11th he wasactually physically assaulted at work - simply for being an Arab. :no:

Such behaviour has to stop, really. That might sound a bit sanctimonious, but perception of the 'outsider' is one of the key features of further persecution...

...So consider this more of an impassioned plea. :p

"Give peace a chance!" :D