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Offline S-99

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It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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So... every currency is a scam?

 

Offline S-99

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You said every currency.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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@S-99: value is relative and subjective. This applies both to the things you want to buy, and the currency you buy those things with. So yes, all currency is "fiat currency".

 

Offline S-99

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@S-99: value is relative and subjective. This applies both to the things you want to buy, and the currency you buy those things with. So yes, all currency is "fiat currency".
Otherwise gold would be valueless, and so would bitcoin, along with a whole multitude of other things. It was actually klaustrophobia who didn't want to accept that humans gave bitcoin value. His idea of value of a currency never went beyond backing of a currency, and if he simply didn't like something.  My response to you is of course, i guess i was no where near obvious enough.

It didn't matter what phantom hoover was going on about.
Really, the currency backs itself like gold does. People gave bitcoin value, like people give other things value too. If you find that bitcoin has no value because it is backed by itself, then that's like saying gold is valueless because it is backed by itself. Why they back themselves is because people gave those items value.

so remind me why fiat currency is a scam
So, i said.
It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.
To which i got.
So... every currency is a scam?
To which i replied.
You said every currency.
I was talking about fiat currency. Blood eagle said every currency. I didn't point that out to be a smart ass. But, when one person A wants a wierd reminder about fiat currency, and the next comment from person B is questioning every currency in existence being a scam. I call it an incorrect relation.

No, aardwolf and bloodeagle, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat currencies  are any state issued, or government declared legal tender, and without intrinsic value. Not all currencies are state issued, not all currencies are declared legal tender by governments. All currencies are at least extrinsic in value for something in common.

What i meant by "It depends if certain fiat currency is a scam if the government backing it is scamming people.", was nothing more than that. It's not inconceivable that some governments manage their currency and it's value better compared to other governments and their currencies. I wasn't trying to get at all fiat currencies being a scam. Some fiat currencies are more of a scam than others, and it'd take some good long research to find if an honest to goodness confidence trick free fiat currency exists (if one does). Are we going to find a scamless fiat currency? Probably not anymore, if ever, it depends how and when government of said fiat currency ****s with it for the citizens to enjoy devaluing of their bills understood as government x did something it didn't have to do with its currency if it was something corrupt.

A good currency i would treat as a scam would be my own american dollars. A good example of conning people was executive order 6102 signed in by president roosevelt.  That executive order said all americans had to turn over all of their gold except a small amount (the small amount was $100 in gold coins) in exchange for cash. Now this might not sound so bad at first, but it was because of devaluing. This presidential executive order resulted in a devaluation of the dollar by 40%. Anybody who exchanged their gold for cash lost 40% of their value in cash. It was a ****ty thing to happen. A good confidence trick to get people to trust the currency more, by forcing them to use it. Pretty darn scammy to do so by making gold ownership next to illegal.

The next scam was with nixon ending the direct convertability of dollars to gold. That pissed people off.

This leaves me here today wondering wtf are my dollars worth?

Now, fiat currencies can start out as scams while (the few if any if ever) non scam fiat currencies can become scams.

For myself and intrinsic value of extrinsic fiat currency:
 Yes certain fiat currencies have higher intrinsic value compared to others (this is separate from the extrinsic purpose of it). What i'm getting at here, is you can have a brief case of highly sought after currency. In the past this was american bills; i don't know what the new highly sought after currency is anymore. Well, i'll get down to it. When someone in the 90 or something had a briefcase full of $100000 american dollars that was theirs, it tends to make them happy. Although uncle scrooge in duck tales didn't have dollars, his money definitely had intrinsic value for him. But, intrinsic value does have a meaningful meaning to currencies, especially fiat.

Where does that leave me?  Days and days go by where i trust the value of this cotton paper less and less and less, especially this close to my government defaulting on the debt. I don't even think that it's backed by gold anymore with the ending of the direct convertability to gold from dollars. With the value of my currency close to failing, and questionability of what my currency is backed on. The popular belief is that it's just monopoly money (which it probably just is now) in a move where the government was trying to get the paper money to back itself because it highly sought after (not as much as it was compared to now, my currency's intrinsic value is lowering), people knew the american economy was strong (not as strong as it was compared to now), the money was popularized (it's the number one thing foreign criminals sure like to have); trying to get humans to give cotton paper a value with faked extrinsic value. That's what i think.

I will definitely call my currency a scam. It'd be nice if my government could be more responsible and less corrupt with it.  So back to gold for a second.
Note that S-99's definition of 'inflation' seems to actually be the rate of change of gold prices; so of course, it's inflation-proof by definition. You're coming at this from the wrong angle.
That's where i was coming from yes.
Rich people buy lots of gold because they think it's stable and inflation proof --- thus making it very unstable. It's a self-destroying prophecy or... something.
There's many reasons for rich and poor people to convert one currency into another. In this case, fiat currency to gold. Gold retains value better (when a currency goes bust, gold will still have value), i would say it is stable. But, another amazingly brilliant thing to do is leaving the game entirely.Governments don't like anybody storing gold. If you turned all of your dollars into gold or some other ****ing precious metal (it doesn't matter), then you have left economy. Move onto something next. Maybe people would find this pointless. I however don't if a currency is failing.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline The E

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I tried to read this, but I failed.

S-99: Every currency in use in international trade these days is a fiat currency. There are no currencies in use right now that are backed by a gold standard (wiki).

Even if you were to convert all your money to gold, you wouldn't have "left the economy", as you would still be interacting with people who participate in it (Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).
All you'd accomplish is to make yourself into a giant pain in the ass for everyone you want to deal with, as your gold is pretty much worthless as a means of wealth exchange.

The problem is this: Gold, like any other fiat currency, only has the value we give it. For me, gold has a rather low value, because there's little I can do with it, given that there are no stores who accept it as an exchange medium. The value of money is determined by what I can do with it. Whether I can redeem it for $PRECIOUS_METAL or not is of little consequence to me, all I care about is "Can I get food/housing/clothing/luxuries with it".

While there are risks involved with fiat currencies, there are just as terrible risks associated with backed ones (The risk of deflation if the money supply cannot keep up with economic demand among them). I'd rather take my chances with the system we have now than with the system that brought us the first great depression.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Turambar

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Typical HLP, I go into a thread looking for info about where I can safely buy drugs online, and I end up reading dissertations about the benefits and drawbacks of various forms of currency.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 
(Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).

And of course have fun extracting any meaningful utility from that gold out in the wilderness (or after the collapse, libertarians love that scenario too). The 'value' of gold is just as contingent on the collective beliefs of the market as that of fiat currencies; the myth of its worth is just more deeply culturally ingrained.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

  

Offline S-99

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I tried to read this, but I failed.

S-99: Every currency in use in international trade these days is a fiat currency. There are no currencies in use right now that are backed by a gold standard (wiki).

Even if you were to convert all your money to gold, you wouldn't have "left the economy", as you would still be interacting with people who participate in it (Unless, of course, you decide to retreat from modern society completely, in which case I shall wish you good luck in your new career as a crazy person living in the wild).
All you'd accomplish is to make yourself into a giant pain in the ass for everyone you want to deal with, as your gold is pretty much worthless as a means of wealth exchange.

The problem is this: Gold, like any other fiat currency, only has the value we give it. For me, gold has a rather low value, because there's little I can do with it, given that there are no stores who accept it as an exchange medium. The value of money is determined by what I can do with it. Whether I can redeem it for $PRECIOUS_METAL or not is of little consequence to me, all I care about is "Can I get food/housing/clothing/luxuries with it".

While there are risks involved with fiat currencies, there are just as terrible risks associated with backed ones (The risk of deflation if the money supply cannot keep up with economic demand among them). I'd rather take my chances with the system we have now than with the system that brought us the first great depression.
Leaving your economy for a different one while bringing said economy's profits you've made with you in a form that loses value slowly or doesn't lose value (my government doesn't like people doing this). Move from the american economy to some other country's. I can see where this would be handy. None of us have the need to do so, but that doesn't get rid of it's usefulness. Of course, it can be accomplished with more than gold, guns, other metals, etc. Usually something is chosen for long term storage and staying value compared to cash.

But, i guess you will try to spend gold directly as currency? That's not how it works. You're right, you did fail.  Gold, other metals, etc., stuff that keeps it's value over the long term, is a great investment for storing your money, not spending it. If you want to spend any of your money in a different form, you have to get it converted to cash. Any precious metal dealer will buy gold back from you at market price, even if it's the same place you bought it from. What really helps is if there actually is a precious metal dealer anywhere around. But, anyone investing in gold, is unlikely to need to turn that gold into cash again (mostly the rich do any kind of serious investing in the metal, your average person may have a gold coin that their grandfather gave them or something).

Turning all of your money into gold however is only hypothetical. Not a life or career choice chosen by me or suggested for others.

But, again, these are literally currencies for different purposes. All money has extrinsic value, some money's extrinsic value is intrinsicly valued more compared to other forms. That's what you're getting at. The extrinsic value of cash and gold is undeniable. However, different purposes for different currencies in this case. You intrinsicly value cash more than gold because of the fact that it's excepted anywhere. Gold is not excepted everywhere, but gold is a great way to store money. Different currencies for different purposes. I wouldn't give gold a lower value intrinsicly because of this. The value of money is more than determined by just what you can do with it.

Again, i don't hate fiat currencies. I just don't like the ones that scam people the most  compared to the ones that scam people the least. And i'm getting at more than the backing of fiat currencies too. I wasn't talking about for one second wanting a return to the gold standard. I was talking about how my government used  gold it's people had to **** them over with. And then questioning what actually backs my money? What actually is my money worth? Who's assigning the value?

Yes there are risks with fiat currencies. But, again, i didn't say they were all bad currencies if they are fiat. Some will scam you more than others. This has a lot to do with what people didn't understand earlier such as what is my money actually worth? who's assigning the value? and lastly, what actually gives it value (is it more than words that gives a piece of paper value or something else, and is that value good enough). People who assign the value what the damn bills in a currency are worth is where a lot of the scamming comes from. Whether you or not can directly convert your bills to gold at your treasury i know is of no consequence to you, it's even of no consequence to me. Again, showing something off as useless just because it's useless to you doesn't mean it is for others. And it wasn't about the usefulness of how people could convert their dollars to gold that i was getting at. What i was getting at was what did this represent to people, the government, the world with the nixon shock of 1971 by ending direct gold convertability? And what were any consequences or benefits of actually doing so? This was something that directly happened to a currency to affect it's value. The nixon shock was a good example of a government ****ing with their fiat currency in the area of high questionability (was this a bad or good ****ing with, for who did it actually benefit, were people scammed when this happened) other than knowing why it happened in this case (to officially move away from the gold standard).  Executive order 6102 was purely just an example of a government scamming people through their fiat currency (what the currency was backed by in 1933 was not the focus).

I'm not saying at all, stay away from fiat currencies. It's all about diversifying your investments and money. I'm recommending being careful and being aware. I would be an idiot not to think about my government defaulting on it's debt and what it means for my money if it does. Being careless with this realistic possibility is not recommended.

But, all you can focus on is living in the woods as removing yourself from an economy for no reason, trying to spend gold at the closest gas station for some hot dogs. Again, there's moving to other economies when you remove yourself from one. That's the evolution of thought i had, you had something else for the purpose of showing uselessness. Just because you don't have a use for something and can't evolve the thought of it doesn't mean that other people will be the same.

But, if you couldn't think about storing your money. Simply just that since i was getting at storing money as gold (which is still intelligent, and storing all money as gold was only something to think about what would actually happen if people did, but not to actually do it). Do you think that storing money is bad? Do you live from paycheck to paycheck? All i know is i was heavily misunderstood.

And no, not all currencies are fiat. And no, not all currencies have to be coins and bills. Yes, international trade happens with fiat currency. That's fine, i was also getting at that international trade also happens with gold. Between banks, governments, and other big stuff which even happens with fiat currency.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline FireSpawn

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While this thread is teaching me more about what currency actually is than school did, I'm gonna back out of it with a fun but completely unnecessary post.



I MUST GO, MY PEOPLE NEE-
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 
suggest you learn about it from some reputable economical source rather than the ramblings of some libertarian bitcoin type and some people who know he's wrong but not well enough to properly get him to back down
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.