Author Topic: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?  (Read 6856 times)

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Offline yuezhi

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22786371
Shows that this has been around for months and that concerned people were already onto this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17839642
Cockroach propaganda about why they should not squished :P
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Offline IronBeer

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Unless there is truly some worthy benefit to humanity to justify it, leave innocent creatures alone.
I know you're not arguing specifically with me, but this comment is a pretty good jumping-off point for me to expand just a bit on one of my earlier points. There IS a worthy benefit to humanity to justify this sort of live experimentation. Understanding how nervous systems work in simpler creatures can be expanded into an understanding for more complex creatures and potentially be leveraged into useful medical knowledge. "For Science" is an acceptable reason for me, but that was never my point of contention.

My point of contention with the company is that this system trivializes what they even call "graduate-level" research. That comment makes it sound like anybody with a smartphone, a hundred dollars to spare, and an unlucky cockroach can perform neurological studies that are usually done at, y'know, real labs with y'know, real scientists.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
I said back in the thread somewhere that this belongs in the lab, if it's worth the trouble at all, not among the general public.

And as for this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17839642

Made me smile. I suddenly like cockroaches now. :)

 
Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
But the insects I do catch I can clearly see fear and if they get hurt, pain in them. And most of these are smaller creatures than cockroaches.

This is textbook anthropomorphism. What you are seeing is your projection of your own emotions onto an animal with a nervous system which has developed along an almost totally divergent path to our own, modulated further by your own peculiar inability to consider any perspective on the world beyond that which is immediately apparent to you.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Now I must say that this is really neat
I will also say I don't give a flying damn about cockroaches

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Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Science marches pulses on!

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Is there some scientific consensus whether cockroaches feel pain or suffer? Because thats what this ethical question crucialy depends on and I am not going to make a judgement until that is answered.
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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
That question is simply not one that can be answered by scientific means. What is 'pain'? For other mammals we can at least attribute it to the same basic neural structures as in ourselves and draw some measure of objective empathy from that; but like I said earlier, the only real commonality between our nervous systems and those of cockroaches is that they're both arranged in a kind of tube.
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
1) I was about to critique your usage of the word "sentience", until I looked it up and realized that you have technically used it in a correct, albeit significantly less common way.  So I learned something.
"Significantly less common" depends entirely on experience. The word you thought "sentience" meant is probably "sapience", and despite constant misuse by (some) sci-fi authors, the two are not interchangeable.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Look, guys, there's really no ethical issues with the cockroaches themselves. They're invertebrates. They don't have a sufficiently well-developed neural structure to have any kind of consciousness about what's happening them. They have some memory capacity and some ability to learn, but they really don't perceive things as we do.

They also recover from damn near any injury by their next molting and are regularly subjected to much more rigorous research with higher potential of limb loss or getting eaten by other test animals which certainly don't necessarily bother KILLING the damn roach before slowly melting them in their digestive fluids (either before or after eating them); roaches are regularly used as fodder for other animals such as frogs, snakes, spiders, preying mantises and small mammals. But these roaches fulfill their purpose.


The actual ethical issue these people are concerned (but won't likely say it) is that this is being marketed for children and then compared to the ages-old sociopathic fun that children do with insects they catch - like pushing straw through the abdomen of a bumblebee and then watch it try to fly, or just pulling legs off insects one by one - for fun.

While this device is quite ingenious and might have actual research applications, the concern is probably that the children who do the aforementioned things will just see this as a good justification for having their fun with small insects, rather than any scientific ambition or wish to learn about the experiments.


And, frankly, I have to say I sort of agree with this. I'm perfectly fine if educational facilities would acquire these devices and demonstrate the basic use of electrodes to manipulate a nervous system of a living animal. However, selling these to general public (and specifically FOR children) seems a bit dubious. This isn't the type of playing I would want to encourage in a child - there are other, better ways for a budding neuroscientist to learn how nervous systems work. I can think of several examples; grown neural nets, computer simulations, other similar learning tools. If some schools want to include this in their biology syllabus or neuroscience syllabus or whatever, fine - have the children operate these wonderful tools in a controlled environment, with a clear purpose of learning with the activities rather than making the cockroach do funny things and then posting a video about it on youtube.

For other than educational or research purposes (and, I have no doubt, surveillance utility) this is a toy with little other redeeming qualities than... having fun making the roach do what you command it to do. And, while I don't particularly feel much sympathy for the roaches considering they're not actually being harmed AND they are a pest, I do think that there are some ethical problems about needlessly poking about an animal for fun.

Here you can see a demonstration of something rather analogous being done to a Shivan:

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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
This sort of thing is an evolution of the chemistry kit. I'm sure that a very small number of kids that got chemistry kits as kids grew up to become drug cooks or make explosives. I'm sure a much, much larger number grew up to become chemists, chemical engineers or other scientists. And I'm sure the vast majority saw a few uses then got put away and had no great impact on the child's life. This is the same. The kinds of kids who'll get them will be mainly the kinds who are already of a scientific bent, or they'll get them from a relative who is. I don't think that it will make psychopaths out of them, and the roach itself is an absolute non issue for reasons already spelled out in this thread.
If I knew a kid who I thought might like a product like this I'd have zero hesitation in buying it for them.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
How can you say it's harmless, you're cutting into the creature's skull and antennae.

And yes, I am very opposed to the idea of creatures, of any kind, being there as nothing more than toys for our amusement.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
I just hope that everyone who gets their kid one makes sure to explain why it's ok on cockroaches (assuming it is; people who get one of these surely think so in any case) and how messing with more complex animals is not the same thing and is not ok.

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
It wouldn't be okay for more complex animals? I mean yeah, doing it while they're awake sure, but if you could upgrade from controlling cockroaches to rats... that'd certainly be something

A little anesthetic to put them to sleep, then voila. Cyborg Rat, controlled by humans with Science!
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Oddly enough, what you say as a joke is the main concern being expressed by animal welfare groups, that without proper discrimination between something like a Cockroach and a Mammal such as a rat, people will assume they are equally 'fair game' for this sort of treatment. A Rat most certainly is aware of pain, and whether humans consider them vermin or not is a purely subjective approach.

Experimentation on rats is one thing, unpleasant but on occasion necessary, it's one of those really tricky 'ends justify the means' situations when dealing with things like cancers etc. But simply using them as a 'toy' is exactly the kind of lines people are worried about crossing without realising.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
How can you say it's harmless, you're cutting into the creature's skull and antennae.

Insects like cockroaches basically regenerate limbs and appendages (like antennae) during their molting. The ground wire in their thorax is not sufficiently large to damage the roach's vital organs.

Whether or not insects like this "feel" pain is a matter of debate. There's conflicting experimental information on pain perception of crustaceans, but the general consensus is that for insects like this, "pain" is only a stimulus among others and they make no difference between pain-stimulus, smell-stimulus, antenna-touch stimulus or light stimulus from their eyes; they just react to it.

The fact that the cockroaches don't react to the implants (by being incapacitated or trying to get rid of the electrodes or the backpack) is in itself indicative that the roach's existence is not meaningfully inconvenienced by the experimentation. There can be some stress reaction from the ice water treatment, but really, it's a roach. Its prime directives are to survive, eat and mate. It has a VERY limited ability to do anything more complex than simple response to stimulus anyway; in this case we've just replaced natural stimulus with artificial type of stimulus.

It's still the roach moving itself, it just thinks it's supposed to react to the stimuli coming from its antennae - which just happen to be caused by electrodes than actual interaction with the world around the roach.

By contrast, a highly developed mammal would likely require heavy sedation or restraint to prevent it from ripping the wires off its head, and the presence of brain cortex also gives rise to consciousness of self - even if it's rudimentary - which basically causes the ability to suffer.

This type of thing has already been done for a long time for research purposes, and research IS being done to gain similar control over complex animals like amphibians, lizards or mammals. But you have to understand that cockroaches are uniquely simple to control because basically all their sensory inputs come from their antennae; it's almost trivially easy to hook up electrodes to said sensors (two is sufficient) to change the sensory input that the roach experiences.

In many ways, this is not a cyborg - it's cockroach virtual reality.

Doing the same with complex animals is much, much more... complex. Because we tend to have much more developed sensory inputs and on multiple layers; figuring out a way to control ALL sensory inputs to create a complete false feedback system (that wouldn't be disrupted by real world interactions like touch) would be insanely complicated for any animal with a brain cortex. You'd literally have to sockpuppet the entire brain with artificial inputs replacing natural sensory inputs.

What this would essentially be is a Brain in a Jar, even though the brain would be sustained by the biological functions of the body it still lives in. But, at that point, it would theoretically be possible to just remove the body, leave the brain hooked to the sensory IO.sys, and provide circulation and sustenance artificially. At that point the brain would still think it's living in a normal reality with a normal body. Or we could hope so.


By contrast, actual cyborg type control of an animal would require directly hooking to their motor cortex and stimulating that to cause desired type of movement, overriding the rest of the brain.

Rather than Brain in a Jar, this type of control would be more akin to a possession of some kind - the rest of the brain would be conscious of what is happening, but unable to control the actions of the body.


For what it's worth, I consider both these types of control deeply disturbing and I'd rather just get rid of the higher brain functions of said animal altogether. If you really need drones based on biological entities, better make sure they're empty husks rather than bother with the ethical issues of essentially creating slaves that still live through every moment of their lives but with no control over... anything.

If that's not enough nightmare fuel, though, you can go and look what certain parasitic single-cell organisms do to higher developed animals - such as ants, snails, or rodents - and then complain about how this relatively benevolent, non-permanent experimentation with cockroaches is "unethical". Because nature certainly isn't anything what you would call "ethical" in the first place.*



Quote
And yes, I am very opposed to the idea of creatures, of any kind, being there as nothing more than toys for our amusement.

Quite so, that's why I don't really see it appropriate to sell this product as an entertainment product.

I don't see a problem using it for research or educational purposes (and I suspect surveillance applications will at some point become relevant, considering where we seem to be going) but yes, I agree - messing with animals (even as simple as cockroaches) is not ethical if it's done just "for fun".



*yes, I know that we should behave in ethically sustainable manner even if nature does not. However that's because we are social animals and as such we have evolved to have an instinctive social contract - which can vary between individuals and be influenced by our experiments, but we all have some kind of ethics structure from birth, aside from people suffering from certain types of mental disorders. This has actually been a significant research field - social skills of infant children, mirrored to the social skills of apes that also seem to be partially inherent and partially built by environmental factors.

Also, even the most disturbing demonic possessions that nature does, fulfill a purpose of some kind. It can be parasitic, only advantageous to the parasite species - or symbiotic, which means the arrangement improves both parties' quality of life even though one or both parties might not even be aware of the interaction - such would be the case of gut flora in our digestive tracts. We only become aware of it when it gets disrupted.

Even seemingly cruel things like cats playing with their food fulfills a purpose of hunting practice. But the purpose is not necessarily "fair" or something we would see as "ethical". The only party that benefits from the cat playing with its food is the cat. At best case scenario the cat isn't even hungry and the prey item scurries away incredibly stressed and probably injured. At worst case it gets eaten. The prey doesn't benefit... the cat benefits... and the parasitic organism possessing the prey item to be easily caught benefits as well.

So maybe it could be argued that if a human child "plays" seemingly sociopathic games with small animals, it "benefits" the child by providing amusement, enjoyment, stress relief...?

So it is an interesting argument. Why is it OK to kill roaches (often with nerve toxins or suffocation) but playing with them while killing them is generally not considered OK? Is it a case of "Fate Worse Than Death?"

Because I'm pretty sure there aren't many animals aside from humans that would choose death over life in any situation. Those species would become extinct pretty fast.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
i have no problem assimilating a species you were just going to dump boric acid on anyway.
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Offline yuezhi

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Sure because you, Nuke, cannot kill cockroaches with your radioactively glorious, thermonuclear apocalypse :P
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
cockroaches have +10000 radiation resistance. most use chemical warfare.
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Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Cockroaches must be crushed, not having electronics fitted to their brains.

But I'm at least glad there's been some concern over this and it's a nock against "Neuroscience" driven by a desire to control another living being.

Neuroscience is neat for how brain fuctions, not so good when it comes to matters of ethics or morality. In fact, I find the entire notion of the cyborg cockroach should be raising ethical controversy instead of stupidly following the tagline, "It's neuroscience! Follow it you unthinking potential consumers and future cyborgs!"
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