[Flipside]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24455141

A bit of a storm has erupted about a science 'kit' available soon which allows the user to control a living Cockroach after using invasive surgery to insert electrodes into it.

The company claims this is with the aim of encouraging children to 'understand Neuroscience', but personally I find that excuse a bit thin, there's only so much you can learn about Neuroscience by following the instructions of how to polish a cockroaches cranium and insert a wire into its Thorax.

I suppose on the other side of the argument, I dissected a frog when I did science, but then, at least it was dead before I started making holes in it.

[Lorric]

This is sick!

[Flipside]

I'm trying to remain open-minded on the whole cockroach thing itself, though it is difficult, because as cold as it sounds we are unlikely to ever run out of them but that still doesn't forgive the way in which the creatures are treated for this.

I've actually felt that some limited live-animal experimentation is a, if not 'good', at least necessary thing in the case of protecting/learning about ourselves or other species, but this, to me, just seems like using life as a kind of 'executive toy' and that cannot be a good direction to push the human psyche in.

[Lorric]

Yes, we're not likely to run out of humans either.

If there's any value to be gained from doing this, it belongs in textbooks, not for the public to play with.

I have discovered this came about through a kickstarter:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/backyardbrains/the-roboroach-control-a-living-insect-from-your-sm

The big headline: The Roboroach: Control a living insect from your smartphone!

The Roboroach: Control a living insect from your smartphone!

And the first words in large letters:

Control the movements of a live cockroach from your own mobile device! This is the world's first commercially available cyborg!

Yeah. They're really going after the young scientist with this.

There's interesting reading in the comments.

[Phantom Hoover]

it's a ****ing cockroach people, you commit crimes of far greater enormity by doing basically anything whatsoever

[Flipside]

@Lorric

Oh, I agree, Neuroscience is kind of like Nuclear Science, it stands to benefit mankind, but you wouldn't want to know your neighbour is having a tinker at it for a laugh.

@Phantom, true, you'd do more damage to the insect population if you trod on the cockroach, and very few people have problems with that, which is what I meant by my second post. I think the problem is that there is a 'humane' issue on the difference between just killing the thing quickly and submitting it to 'experimentation'.

Problem is that's a big question of 'relative morals' which is why I'm kind of trying to remain open-minded despite my own reservations. I wouldn't do it myself, most certainly, but considering public attitude towards insects anyway I don't think it's going to really make the world all that different either.

[Lorric]

but considering public attitude towards insects anyway I don't think it's going to really make the world all that different either.

Well, despite this, there seems to be plenty of people against this, if google has anything to say about it, which is a good restorer in faith in humanity, despite the fact this thing got kickstarted. You can generally tell the quality of a person/people by their attitude towards animals.

[Flipside]

but considering public attitude towards insects anyway I don't think it's going to really make the world all that different either.

Well, despite this, there seems to be plenty of people against this, if google has anything to say about it, which is a good restorer in faith in humanity, despite the fact this thing got kickstarted. You can generally tell the quality of a person/people by their attitude towards animals.

I wasn't clear enough on what I meant by 'not all that much difference', so I can understand how you saw it as that. What I mean is that people will do what they choose to do, and I suspect that the majority will probably simply not bother either through choice or disinterest, a majority of the minority will do it once or twice and discover how boring and pointless it is and stop once the novelty factor has worn off, and only a tiny, tiny fraction of them will actually do this on a regular basis.

[Lorric]

but considering public attitude towards insects anyway I don't think it's going to really make the world all that different either.

Well, despite this, there seems to be plenty of people against this, if google has anything to say about it, which is a good restorer in faith in humanity, despite the fact this thing got kickstarted. You can generally tell the quality of a person/people by their attitude towards animals.

I wasn't clear enough on what I meant by 'not all that much difference', so I can understand how you saw it as that. What I mean is that people will do what they choose to do, and I suspect that the majority will probably simply not bother either through choice or disinterest, a majority of the minority will do it once or twice and discover how boring and pointless it is and stop once the novelty factor has worn off, and only a tiny, tiny fraction of them will actually do this on a regular basis.

This seems likely. Especially considering the price, this is no $2 app.

It still got kickstarted though, and now seems to be getting a lot of publicity, negative or otherwise. I guess we'll see. Hopefully it will simply fade into obscurity and that will be that.

[MP-Ryan]

On the one hand, it's a cockroach.  On the other, this kind of experimentation in universities has to go through an ethics commitee and has clear objectives beyond "hey isn't that neat."

However, I don't think cruelty to animals statues generally apply to insects, so I'd be surprised if any of this runs afoul of the law.  It is certainly sufficiently unethical that I wouldn't contemplate buying one, though.  That said, I've also readily exterminated various kinds of wasps and ants when they invade and I don't have a real ethical dilemma with that.

[BloodEagle]

This device will be banned as soon as some dumb kid injures / psychologically tortures another kid with it.

[Phantom Hoover]

You can generally tell the quality of a person/people by their attitude towards animals.

tell me lorric what is your attitude towards sponges

[Mongoose]

I squish anything creepy that makes its way into my domicile without any qualms at all, but I'm not about to screw around with the thing's brain beforehand.

[Rodo]

This is just rubbish, why would anyone want a zombie cockroach.
On the subject of moral dilemma being discussed, I somewhat agree on animal testing for the improvement of our knowledge yet this seems to be by far any kind of knowledge-seeking project.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

* FUBAR-BDHR contemplates building an army of these just to see how terrified Nuke becomes......

[Lorric]

In general I won't bother people who kill creepy things that enter their home, if all they're doing is killing it quickly and being done with it. I would likely say something if it was done in front of me or if I could see it was about to happen I'd likely try to save the creature, but besides that, I won't hassle you. I don't like it, but it's too normal and too common a thing that people just take for granted and see nothing wrong whatsoever in doing. I don't think humanity is ready for compassion towards insects yet to be commonplace. "Higher" forms of life, we're getting there, we're making progress.

[Phantom Hoover]

the sentience of a cockroach is so alien from our own it seems almost insultingly anthropomorphic to worry about causing it 'unnecessary suffering'

[Scotty]

1) I was about to critique your usage of the word "sentience", until I looked it up and realized that you have technically used it in a correct, albeit significantly less common way.  So I learned something.

2) I actually tend to agree.  That, and cockroaches are filthy creatures that thrive on decay and waste, human or otherwise, and I have no qualms with this.

[IronBeer]

I don't think humanity is ready for compassion towards insects yet to be commonplace.

Look, we're talking about a creature that can live for weeks without a head- I don't think cockroaches feel pain or sensory data in anything approximating that of higher life. In fact, their nervous system is so basic, a cheap circuit board can override their motor functions. Yes, this is definitely a species that we should stress out over one day potentially debating philosophy with. /s

That said, I don't think this company really has the right idea. "Graduate-level research early in life" my ass. It's possible that this whole row is an elaborate troll to get people talking (though I doubt it), but I don't think things are going to work out for the company as they'd hope. If they're sincere in their desire to get kids thinking about neuroscience, then I'll give them a point for trying, but overall I think they're sending the wrong message.

Ed: There was another thing I'd like to point out, re:

In general I won't bother people who kill creepy things that enter their home, if all they're doing is killing it quickly and being done with it.

A lot of people use poison sprays to kill unwanted bugs in their houses. I, for one, do- mostly to take out an errant wasp/hornet because I'm somewhat allergic to stinging bugs and don't want to chance a physical solution. These poisons are neurotoxins that have an overall similar effect (on insects!) as organophosphate neurotoxins like sarin or ricin. Just a little food for thought.

[Lorric]

I have never caught a cockroach, and have only ever seen them abroad, so I have almost no experience with them.

But the insects I do catch I can clearly see fear and if they get hurt, pain in them. And most of these are smaller creatures than cockroaches.

The argument that we don't know so we shouldn't bother is wrong. Unless there is truly some worthy benefit to humanity to justify it, leave innocent creatures alone.

EDIT: @ Ironbeer

You're protecting yourself, so that's okay. This is actually the very first time bug spray has come up for me. People normally just kill them. Step on them, whack them, etc.

Put the creatures out of their misery if you can please.