Author Topic: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?  (Read 6836 times)

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
"Desire to control another living being" is not some fresh bogeyman created by neuroscience — the entire process of domestication constitutes a far bigger violation of this animal right to self-determination you're defending than sticking some electrodes into their nervous system.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
I disagree.

One type of evolutionary pressure is just the same as any other.

How we treat domesticated animals can be an issue, but not the domestication itself.

Of course this excludes selective breeding to give animals features that are unhealthy or cause them to suffer.
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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
If you're going to argue ethics in such broad naturalistic terms as 'evolutionary pressure' then I see no difference between this exercise and what cordyceps and countless other parasites do to their hosts.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Selective breeding is applying evolutionary pressure to make a breed of species to have features you want them to have.

Take dogs for example - the selective breeding process of domestication makes them compatible with life in mixed human-dog packs and improves the quality of life for individual specimens. The dog is an example of a symbiotic relationship. Domestication is part of how that relationship was made possible, and it was just one type of evolutionary pressure that the ancestors of modern dogs faced when they encountered humans.

I'm not sure what your argument here is. Evolution doesn't follow ethics.

It's certainly possible to condemn those instances of selective breeding which are actually aimed to produce properties that cause the animals to suffer from them, but "animal right to self-determination" doesn't really make sense to refer to in context of entire species and their evolution. Again using dog as an example, it's not like wolves choose to live their lives as untamed, wild animal and dogs are "forced" into being domesticated animals living with humans.

They are what they are, respond to the stimuli from the environment they're born to, and make the best out of it like any animal does. Species don't have capability to self-determinate; species don't decide what they want to be. Evolution doesn't discern between selective pressures from humans (selective breeding) and nature (natural selection).
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 
Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
The thing that irks me here is that the harm to the cockroach clearly doesn't justify the disgust people are expressing towards this; we all do far worse without even thinking every day. Instead it seems to stem from some disgust at the 'violation' of the cockroach's control over its own body — what I'm trying to say is, how can you condemn that, when the process of domestication entails controlling the evolution of entire species for our own purposes?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline FIZ

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
With all the NSA stuff... how was this not brought up?


Erm... not working... 5th Element cockroach spy

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Personally, I don't care about those pests. It's a little icky (I always hated cockroaches), but after the trouble we've had with them in our old flat, I couldn't care less about their "well-being". Perhaps this tech could be even used for remote pesticide delivery, which could make removing a cockroach infestation cheaper and quicker (i.e. not requiring you to turn the house inside-out).

Also, I don't think we have to worry about this expanding to other animals. I've seen a mouse EEG apparatus, and it's about the size of a computer tower. Granted, it's old (the only reason we have it is that my father is perhaps the only person left alive who knows how it's software is supposed to work :)), but if the mere non-invasive EEG monitor is that big, a full controller would probably also be pretty hefty, even with modern technology. Not to mention complexity of implanting such a device into a living organism with it being alive after the fact is pretty much beyond anyone without a solid biology/medicine degree. This is a brain surgery, no matter how you slice it (hint: slice carefully :)). An insect is different matter, though, their brains are simple enough that two electrodes and a ground wire do the trick.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
The thing that irks me here is that the harm to the cockroach clearly doesn't justify the disgust people are expressing towards this; we all do far worse without even thinking every day. Instead it seems to stem from some disgust at the 'violation' of the cockroach's control over its own body — what I'm trying to say is, how can you condemn that, when the process of domestication entails controlling the evolution of entire species for our own purposes?


That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Controlling the evolution of a species is a completely different thing from controlling an individual specimen of said species. Do you think dogs express some sort of regret that they don't get to be wolves? That's a completely absurd notion.

It isn't an ethically significant problem to control the evolution of a species to create a domesticated branch or sub-species. The specimens belonging to that domesticated species can suffer from it, the species itself cannot. In fact from evolutionary perspective, getting domesticated is a super good strategy for any species and will give them a huge edge over any wild animal because:
-stady food supply
-protection from elements
-protection from predators
-health care
-lower litter mortality rates
-massively increased sustainable population

Individual animals typically have a massive deluge of advantages if they're domesticated pet animals (cats, dogs, etc.). On the other hand, animals bred for food production typically just get the basic advantages and then a huge caveat that their life will most likely end when they are in an ideal age to be eaten; broiler, calves, piglets - all slaughtered as they reach an optimal size that results in optimal returns in weight and quality of meat, vs. resources used to grow them. Egg chickens get to live longer, milking cows get to live longer, and animals selected for breeding get to live longer. But this has nothing to do with the domestication process itself.

Individual animals belonging to a domesticated species may be treated well and given a stimulating environment to live in, or they may be mistreated; that is a practical problem related to the keeping of said specimen of a domesticated species. But it makes absolutely no sense to talk about domestication as a process somehow denying an animal species its "right to evolve as it wants".

Species do not choose their evolutionary direction in any case; natural selection does. That's why selective breeding is not in any way ethically different from any other selection pressure that doesn't happen to come from humans; certain species in nature exert selection pressure towards other species all the time. It's called predator-prey relationship. Or plants secreting toxic molecules and herbivores eating them getting selected for ability to withstand said toxins. Or two species competing for same food supply and the other species ends up evolving features that give it an edge. The only thing where selective breeding is different from evolution in nature is that it's generally much faster and you see differences fairly soon; this is due to aggressive selection for desireable features and not letting the others breed (although, I should point out, too aggressive process can cause lots of problems with limited gene pool).



Related to animal quality of life: Currently, in our meat industry, treatment of animals is a huge problem. Vast majority them spend their (albeit short) lives in dull, monotonous environments in a completely unnatural existence, and as a result are subjected to lots of stress that arguable diminishes their quality of life. This is especially a problem for pig farming and chicken farming, due to their smaller size - cattle simply require more space to begin with so it is more usually economically feasible to let them pasture (at least in the summer) rather than keep them locked in all the time. Even so there are cattle farms that do keep the animals inside their whole lives whether it's sensible or not.

So here's a question. If we were to invent a virtual reality system that could make these animals living in production facilities think they're actually living in a stimulating environment, outside, pasturing and doing whatever comes naturally to them as a species - would it be ethically wrong to implement said system? Would the animals themselves care? They would have a much better environment, they would not be aware of actually being kept in pens while being hooked up to the system.

We might think it wrong to "deceive them". But, if you look at the situation - we're not willing to give up meat production, and so these animals need to be kept, slaughtered, and then processed into edible products. If we can figure out something to improve their perception of that short life, what's the problem with it as long as their physical needs are also catered to (food supply, health care, making sure their muscles develop right and don't atrophy...

inb4 the Matrix is actually ethically sustainable plan for improving the quality of farm animals' lives
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
What amazes me more about this is the fact that certain individuals believe they can draw a line between life beings that are "complex" enough to deserve to live, and life beings you may kill with impunity because nobody cares. Though it is fairly obvious that humans, cats and bacteria are not on the same level, would you prefer an octopus over a sea urchin? They're both invertebrates, but the former is highly intelligent while the latter is more closely related to vertebrates and therefore humans.

I believe things are harder than they seem and there's no real way to say that it's ok to make cockroaches suffer without a good reason. (I support animal testing, though.)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:28:23 pm by Mobius »
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
What amazes me more about this is the fact that certain individuals believe they can draw a line between life beings that are "complex" enough to deserve to live, and life beings you may kill with impunity because nobody cares. Though it is fairly obvious that humans, cats and bacteria are not on the same level, would you prefer an octopus over a sea urchin? They're both invertebrates, but the former is highly intelligent while the latter is more closely related to vertebrates and therefore humans.

I believe things are harder than they seem.

To me life is life.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
and how many billions of germs did you kill today?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
inb4 the Matrix is actually ethically sustainable plan for improving the quality of farm animals' lives
We should obviously call it the Mootrix.

 
Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
What amazes me more about this is the fact that certain individuals believe they can draw a line between life beings that are "complex" enough to deserve to live, and life beings you may kill with impunity because nobody cares. Though it is fairly obvious that humans, cats and bacteria are not on the same level, would you prefer an octopus over a sea urchin? They're both invertebrates, but the former is highly intelligent while the latter is more closely related to vertebrates and therefore humans.

I believe things are harder than they seem.

To me life is life.

once again: what's your evaluation of the ethics of ****ing about with sponges as opposed to ****ing about with plants?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
To me, it's not so much a question of 'what are we doing?', as 'what are we gaining by doing it?' that is the issue at play here.

As I've said before, experimentation on animals is a necessary, if unpleasant aspect of learning about ourselves and the world around us. My concern is more along the lines of where do we draw the line between necessary experimentation for educational and well-being purposes and 'doing stuff for ****s and giggles'? And where do we define the difference between the two, immaterial of what is actually being experimented on?

If this does turn out to encourage more people towards a career in neuroscience and mental-health then it could be a positive thing, but the way this is presented leaves me in two minds as to whether that is truly the goal of this project.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 06:50:20 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
inb4 the Matrix is actually ethically sustainable plan for improving the quality of farm animals' lives
We should obviously call it the Mootrix.

quick, get this man a cookie.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Lorric

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
To me, it's not so much a question of 'what are we doing?', as 'what are we gaining by doing it?' that is the issue at play here.

As I've said before, experimentation on animals is a necessary, if unpleasant aspect of learning about ourselves and the world around us. My concern is more along the lines of where do we draw the line between necessary experimentation for educational and well-being purposes and 'doing stuff for ****s and giggles'? And where do we define the difference between the two, immaterial of what is actually being experimented on?
Indeed.

Quote
If this does turn out to encourage more people towards a career in neuroscience and mental-health then it could be a positive thing, but the way this is presented leaves me in two minds as to whether that is truly the goal of this project.
I am confident the goal of the "project" is to make money.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
What amazes me more about this is the fact that certain individuals believe they can draw a line between life beings that are "complex" enough to deserve to live, and life beings you may kill with impunity because nobody cares.

I dont think there are many who believe animals deserve to live or cannot be killed. Killing animals, any animals, is not really unethical. Making them suffer is (maybe unless it is done for a damn good reason). And in that case there is a line separating species, because bacteria, plants and such are not sentient, higher animals are sentient. The problem is that the line could be blurry in species that are in-between, like a cockroach, and determining whether cockroaches do suffer or not is a very difficult task. If this remote-control kit existed for cats I am sure it would be quickly banned as animal abuse, if it existed for amoebas nobody would bat an eyelid. With cockroaches it is a grey area.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
What amazes me more about this is the fact that certain individuals believe they can draw a line between life beings that are "complex" enough to deserve to live, and life beings you may kill with impunity because nobody cares.

Since I think I'm one of the only two people who have used the word "complex" in that context here, I ought to clarify that I don't consider anything to "deserve to live". Killing a living being isn't a problem as such no matter how complex it is, but whether the living being suffers or not is, and to me it seems like cockroaches aren't complex enough to be able to suffer, although since I'm not completely sure I wouldn't take the risk and cut one up just for fun.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Just wait for the advanced kit that comes out in the future (TM)  and works on cats ...

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Animal Cruelty or Encouraging Neuroscience?
Just wait for the advanced kit that comes out in the future (TM)  and works on cats ...

that will never work. the cat would kill you first.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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