Author Topic: OT - Right up your alley, CP!  (Read 5539 times)

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Offline Zeronet

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Re: Ok, for all you non-math guys/girls
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Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
I got a riddle that all of you (with a bit of experience) can solve. Its not CP's level of mathematical expertise :rolleyes: .

How can you prove that 1+1 equals 2?

(The awser is not in 1 line...;7)


N+N=2

N is equal to 1.
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Offline CP5670

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Well, I guess I'm a visually-oriented person, considering that I "understood" those graphs far better and faster than I ever would have studying all that Greek stuff.


I am an analytic-oriented guy (just like Lagrange :D) so the equations mean much more to me than the graph. Although the greek letters do tend to get on my nerves. :p

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I know! I know the answer! The answer is forty-two!

*thinks*

Damn. Desn't work. Oh well, time to continue searching...


Actually, in this case, we know what the answer probably is (all zeros are on x=1/2); it's just that nobody knows why it is so. :p

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You know, I watched a program on these people who solved these unsolvable math problems. Like that dude who solved Fermat's Last Theorem. It took him 7-8 years, tens of thousands of sheets of paper, the works of a Japanese mathematician who blew his brains out after giving up on his own crazy theories, and locking himself up in his room for the whole time. And in the end, he figured out an equation. He said it felt like eternal bliss, but I doubt his wife would say the same.  


Yeah, this guy Andrew Wiles has become quite famous among the mathematical community. Fermat's Last Theorem is pretty easy to understand - the equation x^n+y^n=z^n has no integer solutions for x, y and z when n is greater than 2. Proving it is another matter though. Wiles actually ended up uniting classical number theory and diophantine equations along with topology and elliptic curve theory - two of what were thought to be completely unrelated areas of mathematics - by partially proving the Taniyama-Shimura conjecture about elliptic curve modularity (Taniyama was the guy who shot himself after getting frustrated with a math problem :p) and showing that this would also prove the Last Theorem.

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I got a riddle that all of you (with a bit of experience) can solve. Its not CP's level of mathematical expertise  .

How can you prove that 1+1 equals 2?

(The awser is not in 1 line...)


As you might know, Whitehead and Russell attempted to tackle this problem with a 500-page proof derived from symbolic logic axioms in their monumental work Principia Mathematica. But there was an interesting ending to this; Gödel's famous theorem, published shortly after, showed that the consistency of mathematics is actually decidedly indeterminate, and thus it is impossible to create a consistent proof showing this. A sad result, but nevertheless a very important one.

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[color=sky blue]Its been a while since I've done any math not related to chemistry or population studies so I'm a bit rusty. Am I correct in assuming it does the paradoxical thing of approaching in reducing increments as it gets closer to x=o so it never actually reaches the axis?[/color]


Exactly, the limits on either side of the x=1 asymptote are ¥ and -¥. Same kind of thing as with the y=1/x graph at x=0. ;)

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[color=sky blue]I've never seen anything like that. The oscillations are completely asymetrical then it nosedives. I think they may have found the God they were waging a personal war with...j/k[/color]


Yeah, the zeta function does indeed have some very unusual properties. It is a periodic function but seems to actually have an infinite number of distinct periods - they change based on whether the nearby numbers are even or odd. Is the nosedive thing you are talking about the part at the left side of the image?

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The thing they don't know is, the solution to Fermat's Last Theorem is either much simpler than that, or Fermat didn't really know the answer in the first place.


The fact that the methods used to prove the Theorem were almost all invented in the last 50 years has indeed raised speculation about whether or not Fermat actually had a proof (he was in the habit of scribbling results in his notebooks without publishing them, which is where this result was first found); most people think that he probably did not actually have a proof of it and thought it to be correct by trial-and-error, but nobody really knows, since he was a genius of the highest order at any rate.

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Is P = NP?


It can be, if either P or N equals zero. :D
« Last Edit: July 10, 2002, 12:40:37 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Styxx

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
It can be, if either P or N equals zero. :D


Hmm, I think you know what I'm talking about, and it's not that... :p

To clarify: P is the set of problems with solutions that require an amount of time that is proportional in a polynomial relation to the size of the input, while NP is the set of problems with solutions that require an amount of time that is not proportional to a polynomial relation to the size of the input.
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Offline CP5670

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Like that was readily obvious. :p I guess it would have no logically consistent solutions then, since a set operator x cannot equal ¬(x) by definition.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2002, 12:38:55 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by CP5670
Like that was readily obvious. :p I guess it would have no logically consistent solutions then, since a set operator x cannot equal ¬(x) by definition.


Eh, you managed to miss the point again... :p
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Offline CP5670

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Eh, you managed to miss the point again... :p


Was there one? :p Seems like a somewhat strange question anyway; asking for what set an operator and its counterstatement are equal... :p :D

 

Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by CP5670
Was there one? :p Seems like a somewhat strange question anyway; asking for what set an operator and its counterstatement are equal... :p :D


Nope, the point is to prove if there is an actual mathematical difference between the problems inside each of the sets or not. Our current knowledge of mathematics only allows us to do experimental tests on it, that are, per definition, inconclusive. There's also the fact that the only thing creating a difference may be our lack of knowledge of the ways to solve the (currently) NP problems in polynomial time.

Example: the knapsack problem can only be solved in a time that's proportional in an exponential way to the size of the entry - meaning that the processing time grows exponentially to the input size. But it may perfectly be because we do not know yet of the best way to solve it. Since most cryptography algorythms rely on the large times required to solve NP (normally NP-Complete) problems with large inputs, if the answer to the "Is P = NP" question is true, it may destroy every single cryptography system currently in use.

In short, the question is: are non-polynomial problems really non-polynomial or we just don't know enough of math as of yet? It's one of the most famous "unsolveable" problems of modern mathematics and computer science.
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Offline CP5670

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Never mind what I said earlier; I read up a bit more on this problem in various other places and I now see what you are talking about. (actually I initially thought you were talking about PNP and NPN transistors :D) The two probably are equal at some point - new and sometimes surprising transformation identities are being discovered all the time - and besides, any mathematical theory would be incomplete without a synthesis uniting everything.

What is this "polynomial time" btw? Solving time that varies according to a polynomial expression of the input? If it is some sort of technical discrete mathematics or complexity theory term I probably will not know anything about it; all I know about is analysis and infinite process theory. :p

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a much better (and useful, in my opinion) problem


Well this problem, while interesting, is not nearly as important or useful as the RH for us analytic number theory guys. :D

 

Offline TheCelestialOne

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As you might know, Whitehead and Russell attempted to tackle this problem with a 500-page proof derived from symbolic logic axioms in their monumental work Principia Mathematica. But there was an interesting ending to this; Gödel's famous theorem, published shortly after, showed that the consistency of mathematics is actually decidedly indeterminate, and thus it is impossible to create a consistent proof showing this. A sad result, but nevertheless a very important one.


Mmmm... I thought I had the solution... :

The proof starts from the Peano Postulates, which define the natural
numbers N. N is the smallest set satisfying these postulates:

  P1.  1 is in N.
  P2.  If x is in N, then its "successor" x' is in N.
  P3.  There is no x such that x' = 1.
  P4.  If x isn't 1, then there is a y in N such that y' = x.
  P5.  If S is a subset of N, 1 is in S, and the implication
       (x in S => x' in S) holds, then S = N.

Then you have to define addition recursively:
  Def: Let a and b be in N. If b = 1, then define a + b = a'
       (using P1 and P2). If b isn't 1, then let c' = b, with c in N
       (using P4), and define a + b = (a + c)'.

Then you have to define 2:
  Def:  2 = 1'

2 is in N by P1, P2, and the definition of 2.

Theorem:  1 + 1 = 2

Proof: Use the first part of the definition of + with a = b = 1.
       Then 1 + 1 = 1' = 2  Q.E.D.

Note: There is an alternate formulation of the Peano Postulates which
replaces 1 with 0 in P1, P3, P4, and P5. Then you have to change the
definition of addition to this:
  Def: Let a and b be in N. If b = 0, then define a + b = a.
       If b isn't 0, then let c' = b, with c in N, and define
       a + b = (a + c)'.

You also have to define 1 = 0', and 2 = 1'. Then the proof of the
Theorem above is a little different:

Proof: Use the second part of the definition of + first:
       1 + 1 = (1 + 0)'
       Now use the first part of the definition of + on the sum in
       parentheses:  1 + 1 = (1)' = 1' = 2  Q.E.D.

:p
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Offline TheVirtu

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Offline Knight Templar

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Ok kids.... time for magazine time.... *looks around*

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Offline CP5670

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Def: Let a and b be in N. If b = 1, then define a + b = a'
(using P1 and P2). If b isn't 1, then let c' = b, with c in N
(using P4), and define a + b = (a + c)'.


Problem is, you are indirectly assuming that addition works here. What exactly defines x' in relation to x? :p

If you want to know more on why this cannot be done, you might want to check out Kurt Gödel's On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems.

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Thunder must be so proud of CP5670 and Sandwich for promoting smart conversations on the forums


hehe :D

 

Offline TheCelestialOne

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Ok... You got a point there... Can I ask you some more Q's from (wich I think :rolleyes: ) I have the solution?
"I also like to stomp my enemies, incite rebellions, start the occasional war, and spend lazy hours preening my battle aura."

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Offline Sandwich

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Originally posted by TheVirtu
Thunder must be so proud of CP5670 and Sandwich for promoting smart conversations on the forums :)


*waits to see about that...* :D
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Offline CP5670

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Ok... You got a point there... Can I ask you some more Q's from (wich I think :rolleyes: ) I have the solution?


Sure, but I don't know if I will know the answers either. :p :D

 

Offline TheCelestialOne

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try to solve the following equation :

y'=a*y-b*y*y*y, y(0)=y_0

(I have the awnser... Unless you disprove it again... :rolleyes: )
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Offline RoachKoach

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oh dear, eh ahem, cough cough, i must have lost my way, is this the Hard Light forum?

sorry for my ignorance, i am but a poor, ignorant renderer, lowly before you great mathematicians... :D
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Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by CP5670
What is this "polynomial time" btw? Solving time that varies according to a polynomial expression of the input? If it is some sort of technical discrete mathematics or complexity theory term I probably will not know anything about it; all I know about is analysis and infinite process theory. :p


Simple explanation:
P, or "Polynomial Time" problems:
Processing time = (([input size]+1) * 4) seconds

NP, or "Non-Polynomial Time" problems (exptime and others):
Processing time = ([input size] ^ 3) seconds


Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Well this problem, while interesting, is not nearly as important or useful as the RH for us analytic number theory guys. :D


Well, it's one of the most important ones for Computer Science (together with the state machine "stopping" problem - another "unsolveable" ones), and it affects any and all computer security systems of today. What are the practical uses of the problem that started this thread?


Ah, and "1+1=2" can be proved through formal semanthics. :D
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Offline Zeronet

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Everything Equals N its a fact!
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Offline CP5670

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Simple explanation:
P, or "Polynomial Time" problems:
Processing time = (([input size]+1) * 4) seconds

NP, or "Non-Polynomial Time" problems (exptime and others):
Processing time = ([input size] ^ 3) seconds


Aren't they both polynomial operators in the algebraic sense though? ( 4(x+1) and x³ )

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Well, it's one of the most important ones for Computer Science (together with the state machine "stopping" problem - another "unsolveable" ones), and it affects any and all computer security systems of today. What are the practical uses of the problem that started this thread?


Actually, the practical uses all occur in quantum theory, but seriously who cares about that? :D The important thing will be that the solution of the RH will reveal why the prime numbers are distributed the way they are, and thus solve many other fundamental problems in number theory.

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Ah, and "1+1=2" can be proved through formal semanthics. :D


Eh...you are going to prove it through semantics (study of meanings in a linguistic sense) instead of symbolic logic? :wtf: :p Read that book I mentioned earlier; it has been proven that this task cannot be done and that mathematics is not an independently self-consistent system. (Gödel's incompleteness theorem)

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y'=a*y-b*y*y*y, y(0)=y_0


Is this a differential equation? This one is first order and has no independents in the equation, so it should be fairly easy. Here's the solution:

dy/dx = ay - by³

dy/( ay - by³ ) = dx

ò dy/( ay - by³ ) = ò dx

(the integral on the left can be computed by splitting into 1/y and 1/(a-by²) and using integration by parts)

log(y)/a - log(a-by²)/2a = x + c

lim [ log(y)/a - log(a-y²)/2a ] = y0 + c
y->0

The limit will only be finite when a=0, and thus a must be 0 for a solution to exist.

c= -y0

Thus, x = y0 . (since the limit on the left goes to 0 when a=0 regardless of x)