[S-99]

I understand that your political system is even more broken than ours, and that's saying something.

The point is that there are a huge number of Americans that are very dissatisfied with the way your country is going, and yet most people are content to sit back and complain.

I think americans don't do something because the angles for tackling this situation are being miffed out as options all in the name of national security, terroriststerroriststerrorists, and now home grown terrorists being popularized. The continuance of removing rights with a bull**** smoke screen. I have a saying, the government has everybody where they want them to be. It would be better if this were backward.

[Nuke]

im not even totally against socialization at this point. america stopped being america when we gave the lobbyists all the power.

[karajorma]

I think americans don't do something because the angles for tackling this situation are being miffed out as options all in the name of national security, terroriststerroriststerrorists, and now home grown terrorists being popularized. The continuance of removing rights with a bull**** smoke screen. I have a saying, the government has everybody where they want them to be. It would be better if this were backward.

I've not met a single American who talked about politics and didn't complain about the system being broken. I don't think the system is so broken that you couldn't solve the problems with it. MP-Ryan is quite correct, when people get sick of complaining about the government they start complaining about how broken the system is and then don't do anything to fix it!

[General Battuta]

Speaking out of my political science background here, that's a vast oversimplification. Political change doesn't work by bootstraps any more than economic success. There are structural forces at play that make American politics a special kind of dysfunctional, and fixing them's more than a matter of trying hard every day.

Any given political system is a set of rules for a game. The payoff for the game is power. When people play the game long enough, they become very good at optimal strategies. The optimal strategies in American politics are very, very effective at creating tactical dysfunction and legislative gridlock, and anyone playing the game - no matter how well intentioned, no matter how deadset on fixing the rules - has to beat the players using those strategies. In order to beat them, you've got to join them...and that's where a lot of good intentions die.

[Beskargam]

America isn't gona change anytime soon. Not without something super drastic happening, too many special interest groups with way too much money. This is weird coming me because I actually follow politics and currents events, but I feel like trying to change the system is futile (yet I still vote). The power structures need to be nuked and then we can start over (not gonna happen). Until them, I plan on becoming an ex-pat. America is going nowhere but down.

[karajorma]

Speaking out of my political science background here, that's a vast oversimplification. Political change doesn't work by bootstraps any more than economic success. There are structural forces at play that make American politics a special kind of dysfunctional, and fixing them's more than a matter of trying hard every day.

Any given political system is a set of rules for a game. The payoff for the game is power. When people play the game long enough, they become very good at optimal strategies. The optimal strategies in American politics are very, very effective at creating tactical dysfunction and legislative gridlock, and anyone playing the game - no matter how well intentioned, no matter how deadset on fixing the rules - has to beat the players using those strategies. In order to beat them, you've got to join them...and that's where a lot of good intentions die.

I'm not saying it's easy, but when did you last see anyone make a grass roots attempt to change the rules of the game? It simply doesn't happen. Everyone is so certain the system can't be changed that no one even tries.

[Luis Dias]

I also think that this idea that the system is so convoluted and entangled in political mess is just another of those really useful myths that serve as the perfect excuse for the intelligent middle class people to just sit on their couches, see some sportscenter or read a book and bitterly complain that no one will ever do anything about it.

[General Battuta]

I'm not saying it's easy, but when did you last see anyone make a grass roots attempt to change the rules of the game? It simply doesn't happen. Everyone is so certain the system can't be changed that no one even tries.

Not only does it happen, it's actually fairly common. 2008 and 2011 were both marked by major grassroots movements targeting fundamental change...and I suppose 2009, even if I'd disagree pretty strenuously with their aims. All of these movements have been compromised or marginalized.

I also think that this idea that the system is so convoluted and entangled in political mess is just another of those really useful myths that serve as the perfect excuse for the intelligent middle class people to just sit on their couches, see some sportscenter or read a book and bitterly complain that no one will ever do anything about it.

The middle class doesn't engage in empirical analysis of outcomes or cross-national comparisons. The American governmental system has some deep design flaws.

[Luis Dias]

Yes they do. The smarter ones anyway. Hell I'm barely middle class and I think I am able to see how ****ed up the US healthcare system is.

[General Battuta]

I do not for one second believe the middle class sits around running Monte Carlo simulations or building Excel spreadsheets of executive branch staff size since the FDR administration. 

[Luis Dias]

You don't need any of that fancy stuff to make a simple comparison between Canadian and USofA healthcare systems. People might not know the details, but it's fairly easy to just see what is working and what is a mess.

[General Battuta]

Oh, totally, but I do think it requires some higher-level analysis to see how ****ed our institutional problems with solving problems have gotten.

That or you watch ~THE WIRE~ :smuggo:

[MP-Ryan]

You don't need any of that fancy stuff to make a simple comparison between Canadian and USofA healthcare systems. People might not know the details, but it's fairly easy to just see what is working and what is a mess.

Ah, but that requires educating yourself.

The vast majority of the American populace would be hard-pressed to name more than 2 Canadian provinces, nevermind give a basic summation of the differences in the health care systems.  It comes out regularly during their elections - the misinformation, and the amount that politicians get away with is astounding.

[General Battuta]

Americans are low-information drones who know basically nothing, but this is arguably a pretty rational reaction to the American system, since the ability-to-influence-policy payoff for investing time in gathering political information is minimal and you're better off just taking cues from elites while you continue to desperately armor yourself against financial and physical hardship. America needs a social safety net in order to foster an informed, prosperous populace, but it can't create that safety net until its populace picks up a little more information and prosperity.

[AdmiralRalwood]

2008 and 2011 were both marked by major grassroots movements targeting fundamental change...and I suppose 2009, even if I'd disagree pretty strenuously with their aims.

Not only do I disagree "pretty strenuously with their aims", I disagree pretty strenuously that they can be classified as "grassroots."

[S-99]

I'm not saying it's easy, but when did you last see anyone make a grass roots attempt to change the rules of the game? It simply doesn't happen. Everyone is so certain the system can't be changed that no one even tries.

A good example for an area americans can use that is potentially snuffed out as an option. How long before that grass roots movement gets considered to be a terrorist group and a bunch of militarized police come to screw everybody over? Options for what americans can do everyday are getting removed from the people. Americans should do something about it. Perhaps there are other issues that are more pressing.

I know if i were wanting to do something, or anything...i'd make sure before hand if i have enough money and will even produce enough money to simply keep myself alive. Something tells me that this is one big pressing matter for anyone american who wants to change how bad my government is. And what a great strategy, make sure your people can't revolt. It's sad to think of the idea of americans who think that the system can't be changed. I just think it's being made more difficult daily, but that change is not impossible.

[Beskargam]

I'm not saying it's easy, but when did you last see anyone make a grass roots attempt to change the rules of the game? It simply doesn't happen. Everyone is so certain the system can't be changed that no one even tries.

A good example for an area americans can use that is potentially snuffed out as an option. How long before that grass roots movement gets considered to be a terrorist group and a bunch of militarized police come to screw everybody over? Options for what americans can do everyday are getting removed from the people. Americans should do something about it. Perhaps there are other issues that are more pressing.

I know if i were wanting to do something, or anything...i'd make sure before hand if i have enough money and will even produce enough money to simply keep myself alive. Something tells me that this is one big pressing matter for anyone american who wants to change how bad my government is. And what a great strategy, make sure your people can't revolt. It's sad to think of the idea of americans who think that the system can't be changed. I just think it's being made more difficult daily, but that change is not impossible.

I'm pessimistic about our system, but I don't think the government is out to get us and that we are turning into a police state. Ironically our federal gov system has been designed to dilute power and have groups at loggerheads in order to prevent one group having sole power and doing just as you said. Ironic how well it worked out, and how little we can get done now. I need to re-read the federalist papers...

[karajorma]

Not only does it happen, it's actually fairly common. 2008 and 2011 were both marked by major grassroots movements targeting fundamental change...and I suppose 2009, even if I'd disagree pretty strenuously with their aims. All of these movements have been compromised or marginalized.

All of them started out with deep, deep flaws in their ideology which made them pretty easy to marginalise. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about simply realising that the system is so deeply ****ed that you can't bring a list of changes you want from your side and tilt at windmills. Instead you need to draw up a bi-partisan, inclusive list of the things everyone agrees on and do something about those first.

I'll give you a for instance, everyone knows that corporate lobbying is one of the major reasons the system is ****ed. When did you see a grassroots campaign to ban corporate lobbying with no other left or right wing goals. You don't see that, everyone always adds other goals which they know the other side are against and the system doesn't change. Revolution happens because of simple ideas everyone agrees with. Not because of a list of demands about what will happen once the revolution is complete.

[Nuke]

thats hard to do in a 2 party system. especially with both parties are heavily funded by the lobbyists. ive heard republicans (and probibly democrats too) say flat out that lobbying is the american way, and will probibly not vote it down ever. we cant even kill the filibusterer because the republicans love that little strategy. its just a waste time and do nothing until we get our way strategy. government shutdown same thing. you try to take away such a well established political strategy and they give you that american way speech and keep on doing what they were. i for one am sick of these do nothing strategies.

if i remember my history right, strategies similar to these is how the nazis managed to take over germany. at least give me some jack boots and black uniform and tell me to kill arbitrary sections of society.

[General Battuta]

Not only does it happen, it's actually fairly common. 2008 and 2011 were both marked by major grassroots movements targeting fundamental change...and I suppose 2009, even if I'd disagree pretty strenuously with their aims. All of these movements have been compromised or marginalized.

All of them started out with deep, deep flaws in their ideology which made them pretty easy to marginalise. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about simply realising that the system is so deeply ****ed that you can't bring a list of changes you want from your side and tilt at windmills. Instead you need to draw up a bi-partisan, inclusive list of the things everyone agrees on and do something about those first.

I'll give you a for instance, everyone knows that corporate lobbying is one of the major reasons the system is ****ed. When did you see a grassroots campaign to ban corporate lobbying with no other left or right wing goals. You don't see that, everyone always adds other goals which they know the other side are against and the system doesn't change. Revolution happens because of simple ideas everyone agrees with. Not because of a list of demands about what will happen once the revolution is complete.

I just don't think historical evidence bears out the main axis of your argument here, whether in America or anywhere else. I don't think this is the mechanism of political change.