Author Topic: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?  (Read 23917 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Techroom selection isn't a good idea, it kills immersion too much. It's also a sign of lazy FREDing. :) A proper hub mission and a branching campaign would be much more professional.

 

Offline Axem

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I just timed the mission load for the hub mission in JAD:XA. It takes me around 8 seconds the very first time to load it, and substantially less for repeat times. Like 2-3 seconds.

There can be lots of ways to help the player find the mission he wants among many. Sorry to bring up JAD:XA again, but each "choose your next mission ship" has its own distinct and related model. A drone for a turkey shoot, a navmarker for a race, the boss you're going to duel, etc. You could also have the branching paths take opposite directions or any other number of subtle indicators.

Also, when I was getting footage for Shadow Genesis for the 2013 release video, I, being still real unfamiliar with the missions, chose the same mission in the tech room like 3 times. In a row. You might be familiar with every single mission, but its going to be hard for a new player to remember which mission he's at (even if you've told him), especially if he's playing just a few missions at a time.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Techroom selection isn't a good idea, it kills immersion too much. It's also a sign of lazy FREDing. :) A proper hub mission and a branching campaign would be much more professional.
It just feels like making things worse to me. Less efficient, less workable, slower, more complicated than it needs to be. This isn't about trying to cut corners.

I just timed the mission load for the hub mission in JAD:XA. It takes me around 8 seconds the very first time to load it, and substantially less for repeat times. Like 2-3 seconds.

There can be lots of ways to help the player find the mission he wants among many. Sorry to bring up JAD:XA again, but each "choose your next mission ship" has its own distinct and related model. A drone for a turkey shoot, a navmarker for a race, the boss you're going to duel, etc. You could also have the branching paths take opposite directions or any other number of subtle indicators.

Also, when I was getting footage for Shadow Genesis for the 2013 release video, I, being still real unfamiliar with the missions, chose the same mission in the tech room like 3 times. In a row. You might be familiar with every single mission, but its going to be hard for a new player to remember which mission he's at (even if you've told him), especially if he's playing just a few missions at a time.
Don't worry about JAD, I've seen your thread even though I've never played any JAD, and I've seen the shots of your hub, so at least I can relate a bit to that and it's interesting to see how long it took your real hub to load.

I'm very limited for models though for this campaign, before managing to make one relevant, so that's a no go really.

It is a good argument that a player might get lost if they have to pick back up in the middle of the campaign on another day. I guess we're just going to have to look at this stuff if I manage to FRED all the missions.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
If I had to pick the next mission in the techroom I'd laugh and drop the campaign.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
If I had to pick the next mission in the techroom I'd laugh and drop the campaign.
Why? Do you not play single mission releases then?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Single mission releases generally don't require you to pick the next mission in the techroom...though even when we've shipped single missions we've often given them a campaign file so they'd be apparent to new players in the campaign room, since they were released alongside full campaigns and needed to pop.

It's also a sign of sloth. There are a dozen really easy solutions to the problem of 'pick the next mission', from the incredibly simple to the incredibly ornate. Skipping those solutions is like forgetting to add mission objectives or traitor debriefs - this kind of basic polish work needs to get done.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Single mission releases generally don't require you to pick the next mission in the techroom...though even when we've shipped single missions we've often given them a campaign file so they'd be apparent to new players in the campaign room, since they were released alongside full campaigns and needed to pop.

It's also a sign of sloth. There are a dozen really easy solutions to the problem of 'pick the next mission', from the incredibly simple to the incredibly ornate. Skipping those solutions is like forgetting to add mission objectives or traitor debriefs - this kind of basic polish work needs to get done.
Do you ever use the techroom?

I don't know. What's easy to someone like you would probably be really hard to someone like me, I've seen you talk of things being easy before which are certainly not to me. Especially for something like this. It would be understandable if this was just a linear campaign, then I'd want a campaign file to go with it. But I also want the player to be able to access all the missions without playing the campaign again. I'm sure a lot of people don't know about ctrl+shift+s. They might not even know the campaign is branching.

And why do you need a traitor debrief, that's something that seems like completely unnecessary work, quite possibly just to make the game worse. If someone wants to just shoot the place up, let them have their fun. Otherwise a traitor mechanic is just an aggravation that triggers once in a while because some fool flew in front of you and got blown up.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I should've said AWOL debrief (unless you just lock the jump drive, which works better depending on your setting's fluff.)

And it really is easy. Pop up a training message at the end of the choice mission, for instance. 'Press 1 to [go branch A], press 2 to [go branch B].' Detect the next keypress on 1 or 2 and set a var that the campaign file reads. Ugly, simple, reliable. Or tell the player to land in a different location, or approach one of a pair of nav buoys, or...there are so many options.

The traitor mechanic is hardcoded, by the way, nobody gets to have their fun! (might be a way to turn this off in mission specs, actually)

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I should've said AWOL debrief (unless you just lock the jump drive, which works better depending on your setting's fluff.)

And it really is easy. Pop up a training message at the end of the choice mission, for instance. 'Press 1 to [go branch A], press 2 to [go branch B].' Detect the next keypress on 1 or 2 and set a var that the campaign file reads. Ugly, simple, reliable. Or tell the player to land in a different location, or approach one of a pair of nav buoys, or...there are so many options.

The traitor mechanic is hardcoded, by the way, nobody gets to have their fun! (might be a way to turn this off in mission specs, actually)
Ah. Yes, I switched off the jump drive. Player's not going anywhere they shouldn't. ;)

I don't know what a var is. I haven't paid attention to the mechanic of putting a campaign in a campaign file though, as I didn't expect I would be doing it for this one. So maybe this is do-able, but what about the problem of the player not being able to easily play all the missions? You can't go to a branch back in the campaign and play from there, you have to play the campaign again. And you'd then lose your other branch in the techroom, it would be replaced by your new playthrough. Is there a solution? If there is, it would be appealing to me to try and make it work.

In one of my missions, someone tried shooting stuff up. He got a message, something like "Hey, don't shoot your allies, m'kay." Something Spoon put in I'm sure. But I don't think anyone fought back.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Maybe the solution is to do both. Give the player all the missions to play as single missions in the techroom, and give the player a campaign to play through in the way they are familiar. I can go with that. I've been looking at the campaign editor section in the Diaspora walkthrough, and I guess I could do the branches and the bonus missions would be SOC Loops.

Having to go into the techroom to play such missions after actually defeating the campaign wouldn't be a problem would it? You'd have to do that anyway normally if you wanted to replay missions, you'd just be doing it from the single missions section, instead of the campaign missions section, which would be incomplete. And of course those that know about the ctrl+shift+s combination could still use that. The campaign itself could then also be restarted and replayed if desired without losing the missions as they'd still be around in the single player section. And I could keep my directions on which mission to play next. If playing through single missions in the techroom, you'd know where to go. If playing the campaign, you'd just continue as normal and be taken there automatically. Maybe I could even take that out in the campaign and leave it in in the single player missions.

Quite exciting! I can do red alert missions now. niffiwan told me the red alert bug should have been done away with now that 3.7.0 is in town.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Maybe the solution is to do both. Give the player all the missions to play as single missions in the techroom, and give the player a campaign to play through in the way they are familiar. I can go with that. I've been looking at the campaign editor section in the Diaspora walkthrough, and I guess I could do the branches and the bonus missions would be SOC Loops.

Having to go into the techroom to play such missions after actually defeating the campaign wouldn't be a problem would it? You'd have to do that anyway normally if you wanted to replay missions, you'd just be doing it from the single missions section, instead of the campaign missions section, which would be incomplete. And of course those that know about the ctrl+shift+s combination could still use that. The campaign itself could then also be restarted and replayed if desired without losing the missions as they'd still be around in the single player section. And I could keep my directions on which mission to play next. If playing through single missions in the techroom, you'd know where to go. If playing the campaign, you'd just continue as normal and be taken there automatically. Maybe I could even take that out in the campaign and leave it in in the single player missions.

Quite exciting! I can do red alert missions now. niffiwan told me the red alert bug should have been done away with now that 3.7.0 is in town.

By single player missions I assume you mean techroom missions?

And this sounds like a good way to do it. Convenient for the player, as he can actually play through the campaign proper, yet still access mission in the techroom. Maybe add a readme that lists the possible mission paths?

Even in branching campaigns, I believe the cheat code reveals all branches of a campaign. I worked that way in The Antagonist, allowing me to try the alternate ending.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Maybe the solution is to do both. Give the player all the missions to play as single missions in the techroom, and give the player a campaign to play through in the way they are familiar. I can go with that. I've been looking at the campaign editor section in the Diaspora walkthrough, and I guess I could do the branches and the bonus missions would be SOC Loops.

Having to go into the techroom to play such missions after actually defeating the campaign wouldn't be a problem would it? You'd have to do that anyway normally if you wanted to replay missions, you'd just be doing it from the single missions section, instead of the campaign missions section, which would be incomplete. And of course those that know about the ctrl+shift+s combination could still use that. The campaign itself could then also be restarted and replayed if desired without losing the missions as they'd still be around in the single player section. And I could keep my directions on which mission to play next. If playing through single missions in the techroom, you'd know where to go. If playing the campaign, you'd just continue as normal and be taken there automatically. Maybe I could even take that out in the campaign and leave it in in the single player missions.

Quite exciting! I can do red alert missions now. niffiwan told me the red alert bug should have been done away with now that 3.7.0 is in town.

By single player missions I assume you mean techroom missions?

And this sounds like a good way to do it. Convenient for the player, as he can actually play through the campaign proper, yet still access mission in the techroom. Maybe add a readme that lists the possible mission paths?

Even in branching campaigns, I believe the cheat code reveals all branches of a campaign. I worked that way in The Antagonist, allowing me to try the alternate ending.
Yes.

I would like them to go in blind, not be able to see the paths right from the start. It's something that could be thought about maybe later on after it was released, but I'm not sure how I'd describe it. I guess ideally they would unlock it somehow after beating the campaign.

I played the Crucible campaign recently, which is supposedly the only fully branching campaign there is. That will change if I complete this. Opening up it's campaign file and having a look should be useful.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I'm not sure if you've made any decisions yet Lorric, but I hope you're still keen to hear alternative opinions. And, having read through this before posting, I've noticed it's coming across as somewhat... dictatorial? Inflexible? I don't know - just consider this a general disclaimer - insert your own IMO's throughout and remember that all this is just my opinion. So, with that out of the way:

There are two issues raised in this thread, so I'll start with the simpler one: your techroom missions idea. Simple answer: don't do it.

Please, don't let my tone there disguise the way in which I mean what I'm saying. It might sound dismissive, and I suppose that's not entirely unfair, but you have to know that using that technique... it's at best inelegant and at worst actively offputting to the vast majority of potential players. As it is, people just don't play single missions in our community. It's a harsh but true fact of life around here. Asking people to play what would effectively be a dozen or so single missions... look, it's just not going to happen. People are either going to be confused or annoyed. Mistakes will happen. People will forget which mission they're supposed to be playing, accidentally click the wrong one - the story will inevitably end up corrupted. And FS2 has a very powerful campaign editor integrated very tightly with the excellent mission making tools which will allow for a proper branching campaign. In this day and age, with Axem's mouse select scripts (Which ar4e actually very, very easy to use) and the various examples already done around the community (Bem Cavalgar, WiH etc.) there's no reason not to allow the player's choices ingame to drive a campaign down a branching path, there really isn't.

To be entirely honest, it feels a little like something I recognize from my own projects - a sort of modding inertia. I suspect tht when you came up with the idea for the branching campaign and the techroom missions, you may have been unaware of the alternative options for how it might otherwise be done? And now that you're aware of them, they feel like they might be too difficult to do right, and besides, you have a perfectly good way to do it already? I've felt that exact way about lots of things in the past - FSO (when it was new), HTL models, skyboxes instead of individual nebulas, using scripts, tonnes of things. It's difficult and a little bit intimidating to learn to use new skills but I promise you, it'll be worth it - especially in this case.

Now, as to the question of whether to use player characters. I'm on record many times as saying that I prefer a silent protagonist in FS campaigns. It's been done well plenty of times (not least in all four of [V]'s official campaigns), and, let's be honest, people don't expect a player character. Adding one adds a lot of headaches to the development, and will inevitably affect people's enjoyment and opinion of the campaign, so why do it? Extra work for no necessary extra gain, and a lot of potential backlash.

My biggest problem with player characters is partly the fact that a significant part of your audience just isn't going to like or identify with the character you create. This is a problem in and of itself, but it's made much worse when the narrative of a campaign forces you to play as a character who makes decisions that you personally strongly disagree with. This is particularly important if you have any kinds of shades of grey in your campaign. As the most well known player character campaigns, the BP comparison is impossible to avoid, so I'll make it here. In AoA, I didn't particularly care about Sam Bei, or identify with the character all that well. Not any reflection of the quality of the campaign, I just didn't click. And TBH, it didn;t really affect my enjoyment of the campaign since Sam never really made any decisions I disagreed with. For all the narrative stuff going on, It was basically a straightforward campaign - the GTVA are good, the Shivans are bad, kill the Shivans. A few things I didn't really understand were going on, but whatever, no big deal. However, this got turned on its head in WiH, where things were much more complex, and as such, being railroaded by the character of Laporte and the narrative necessities of the storyline was much more jarring.

So, given all that, the logical assumption would be that I would be advise against a player character. Well, almost. The reality is that all of the [V] campaigns and most of the user made silent-protagonist campaigns have been relatively black and white affairs. Very rarely have the kinds of shades of grey that WiH was able to play with been prominent, and in all honest it might be hard to play with those kind of narrative ideas with the player remaining utterly silent all the way through. However, you have an advantage that they didn't have in WiH in that you are specifically setting out to make a branching campaign. Eliminate the rails, and suddenly railroading ceases to be a problem, at least in theory.

So my suggestions would be thus: If you want to make a basic, traditional, Freespace sort of story, where the morality is pretty straightforward, keep your player silent. It's easier and will lighten your load, almost certainly making the campaign better. If, however, you want to tell a more morally complex story, then a player character might be inevitable, but for god's sake branch your campaign whenever the player has to make a significant choice, and let the player, not the writers, decide how that character thinks and works. In my opinion, those are the two peaks in the continuum of options available to you. Deviate from them, and you'll struggle.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I mostly agree but I'd probably soften your caveats about players disagreeing with the protagonist. In general players are able to recognize that the PC has a distinct personality and desires and might make choices they'll disagree with - this is the foundation of most game storytelling, inside FreeSpace or out. I don't think player attrition due to voiced protags is a significant concern for all but the most ill-written campaigns.

It is, however, a hell of a lot easier to keep your protagonist silent, since most people can't write at even a basically functional level.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I mostly agree but I'd probably soften your caveats about players disagreeing with the protagonist. In general players are able to recognize that the PC has a distinct personality and desires and might make choices they'll disagree with - this is the foundation of most game storytelling, inside FreeSpace or out. I don't think player attrition due to voiced protags is a significant concern for all but the most ill-written campaigns.

I understand what you're saying, but for me it's jarring to try to immerse myself in an interactive story where I have a degree of control and agency, and then to lose that agency during critical times in the plot. It's much more frustrating than in a movie, where you have zero agency, or, at the other extreme, in a big, sandboxy RPG like Skyrim, where your decisions are (or at least, are skillfully made to feel) at the heart and soul of the plot. Where FS2's silent, nameless-soldier protagonist felt very much more like an observer - almost like a movie - WiH fell much more in the middle of those two extremes, and (again, to me) felt awkward as a result. That's probably more of a testament to the complexity of the storyline though - as I said, most silent-protagonist campaigns that have been made for FS2 in the past haven't had enough complexity for the player to have any reason to disagree with the actions set for him by the writers.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
It's definitely a challenge, and I expect it'll always create some friction - more or less depending on how well the character works for you - but I have a lot of faith in the ability of players to understand that they're someone else right now and to enter that character's headspace. Where that doesn't work, I think it's down to the writers failing to do their jobs well enough, rather than an intrinsic structural problem with player characters.

Vast amounts of entertainment, agentic or not, are built around characters who are unsympathetic, monstrous, self-destructive, or otherwise difficult to identify with: but nonetheless a lot of these stories work really well even when the player is asked to play these characters. A lot of people think Saint's Row 2 was Volition's best narrative.

If I do a campaign outside Blue Planet it'll be a silent protagonist, because I want to explore a different approach to storytelling and agency. Ironically, if V did another FreeSpace campaign, they said they'd probably use a voiced protagonist with a defined personality.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
It's definitely a challenge, and I expect it'll always create some friction - more or less depending on how well the character works for you - but I have a lot of faith in the ability of players to understand that they're someone else right now and to enter that character's headspace. Where that doesn't work, I think it's down to the writers failing to do their jobs well enough, rather than an intrinsic structural problem with player characters.

I strongly disagree here. I just don't think you can push FreeSpace to that degree of character depth and pretend it's the writers' fault if people don't like it.

Get FS to work like Star Ixiom, and your ideas would make more sense.


Ironically, if V did another FreeSpace campaign, they said they'd probably use a voiced protagonist with a defined personality.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Quote
In an interview more than a decade ago, you said that heterodoxy was good, and that the FreeSpace mythos could support all sorts of stories even if the canon campaigns themselves pressed for a grim, intentionally depersonalized narrative. The community's clearly taken that to heart; many of the most popular FreeSpace campaigns use speaking protagonists, or venture into genres like horror. Would you stand by your words, or do you feel that the FreeSpace universe and game design lend themselves best to a particular style of narration?

I think if we were to make a FreeSpace game now, you would probably see a lot more character depth and development. We made a stylistic choice at the time, and it kept us very focused.

Not only are you up against V's own opinions on the game, you're up against the summed evidence of everything we've made in this community. People enjoy campaigns with characters. People enjoy campaigns without characters. Not everybody likes the same things. Heterodoxy is the order of the day - there's no one right way to make a FreeSpace campaign.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
People enjoy campaigns with characters. People enjoy campaigns without characters. Not everybody likes the same things.
And most people like both!

Neither concepts are bad or more/less adapted to FS. It's just a matter of execution.

And if the tools are lacking for doing your execution in an ideal way, you make better tools and/or get creative.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Yep. To quote Mr. Scott,

Quote
I love the fact that it's impossible to speak of the FreeSpace universe monolithically. The mythos expands with every story and mission that players create. Heterodoxy is a good thing.

The more techniques people try the stronger the community is. A creative monoculture means death.