Author Topic: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?  (Read 23914 times)

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Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Prove how that means we would have had a talking player character in FS3. More character depth could mean more characters like Snipes or Bosch; there's absolutely no reference to an Alpha 1 that talks in what we have from :v:.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
You're right, fair enough. Do you genuinely believe that the only correct way to write a FreeSpace campaign is to use a silent protagonist? Why did you hope Blue Planet would become as big as Inferno if you felt that way? Would you prefer to see Transcend, Blue Planet, Wings of Dawn and the rest unmade?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
No, I simply believe FreeSpace's mechanics are good for many things but not for that sort of characterization. When I want to play games with lots of characters that are well developed, I switch to jRPGs, where I can read (or listen to) conversations more conveniently, see gestures, facial expressions, etc.

This is nothing more than a personal opinion, that's it. It doesn't mean I don't like characters in FreeSpace, though.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I think FreeSpace offers as many tools for characterization as your average short story, and maybe a few more. Speaking of which, keep an eye out for my FreeSpace short story 'Morrigan in the Sunglare' in an upcoming issue of Clarkesworld! I've been talking to Jason Scott about it, so maybe I'll ask him some more about his thoughts on voiced protagonists in FreeSpace.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Oh wow, that'll be fun!

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
No, I simply believe FreeSpace's mechanics are good for many things but not for that sort of characterization.

->
It's just a matter of execution.

And if the tools are lacking for doing your execution in an ideal way, you make better tools and/or get creative.

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Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I think FreeSpace offers as many tools for characterization as your average short story, and maybe a few more. Speaking of which, keep an eye out for my FreeSpace short story 'Morrigan in the Sunglare' in an upcoming issue of Clarkesworld! I've been talking to Jason Scott about it, so maybe I'll ask him some more about his thoughts on voiced protagonists in FreeSpace.

It'll be fun indeed, but please be very specific when you ask questions and make sure that the answers you get are not ambiguous.

StarLancer had a talking player character who on average said a phrase per mission. It's completely different compared to what we see in, for example, Blue Planet. If anyone from :v: says he's fine with talking player characters, please tell him what you mean by that.


No, I simply believe FreeSpace's mechanics are good for many things but not for that sort of characterization.

->
It's just a matter of execution.

And if the tools are lacking for doing your execution in an ideal way, you make better tools and/or get creative.

That's why I said things can change if you find a way to import Star Ixiom's game mechanics.  :p
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I'm not concerned about disambiguating questions for your benefit. The community is correctly and overwhelmingly open to all kinds of narrative styles in FreeSpace. You're free to hold whatever opinion you like.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
So? You're the one who cited :v: in order to gain the upper hand in this discussion. The burden of proof is on you. :p
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I already said that you were right, his statements don't point explicitly to a voiced protagonist. Volition has used voiced protagonists in every game since FreeSpace, but there's no guarantee they would've in a notional FreeSpace 3 (and personally I'd prefer they didn't.)

 

Offline The E

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
So? You're the one who cited :v: in order to gain the upper hand in this discussion. The burden of proof is on you. :p

No, Mobius, he cited :v: as saying that the multitude of narrative styles we've seen in FS modding over the years is totally fine, and that just because they stuck to one particular mode does not mean that anyone using a different mode is in any shape or form wrong.

That you don't get along with scripted protagonists in FS is totally fine too. Noone's forcing you to like it. But, on the other hand, you should make a greater effort at not making statements that can be read as ex cathedra condemnations of said protagonists.

The big sticking point for me, whenever I read your opinion pieces on campaign design, or campaign narrative, is that you haven't released a campaign yet. There's no piece of yours that shows your perfect vision of what a FreeSpace-style game should look like. Frankly, if Battuta, Goober, Karajorma, Spoon, Droid803 or Axem talk about how to write a campaign, then I listen, because there's stuff available from them that I can check out and that shows how they made their approaches work. When you expound on how inferior voiced protagonists are, I have a hard time taking you seriously, because equivalent examples written by you are not available to the public (And the pieces of writing that are available have issues, to say the least).
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I don't think one needs to be a creator to be a good critic. Although it would help, sure.

One also needs to be a little careful about that counter, it kinda has a really small bit like "You have no idea how hard it is, stop talking **** about it!1!" inside of it.

Personally, I understand what both Mobius and Battuta are getting at. I also didn't like Laporte and the experience of "me" delivering "almost" good lines, but not quite, and sometimes awkwardly off putting or with bad timing... gave me an annoying sort of an uncanney valley personified in Laporte's character. As if if I were playing a massively non-likable or just wildly different character I wouldn't mind at all and would consider it fun. Or if the character was so well played that even if it was its own, I couldn't but accept it, because it would have been so terribly well written.

Laporte is a weird experience. And enough experiences like that kinda throw someone off from that mechanism. OTOH, I agree with Batutta that this is a problem of delivering the goods, not on the existence of them. Characters, if written, can be either well written or not. (For instance, I could really not bother with the whole Shivan and Ancients war from the very first dialogue between wingmates in the very first mission, it can have that kind of an impact).

If one's less sure of himself or herself about being able to deliver a good character, then my advice is obvious, refrain from anything that goes into the direction of writing a lot of those. If one really wants to do that kind of stuff, however, I really don't see why wouldn't one really want to dwelve in this.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Yeah I'm afraid the writing in ASW put me off after about three missions. I felt really bad about it, but...

Jeez, that reminds me, I completely neglected ASW in the big campaign roundup, didn't I? It probably deserves a spot somewhere in there.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
Sorry E, I think you're wrong, I just read the previous posts again, and apparently Battuta cited :v: in what seems to be a form of argumentum ad auctoritatem: I was supposedly wrong because a person from :v: said they would do what I wouldn't. This is illogical; also note how Battuta apologized for interpreting the recent revelations from :v: in a way that was convenient for him.

The big sticking point for me, whenever I read your opinion pieces on campaign design, or campaign narrative, is that you haven't released a campaign yet. There's no piece of yours that shows your perfect vision of what a FreeSpace-style game should look like. Frankly, if Battuta, Goober, Karajorma, Spoon, Droid803 or Axem talk about how to write a campaign, then I listen, because there's stuff available from them that I can check out and that shows how they made their approaches work. When you expound on how inferior voiced protagonists are, I have a hard time taking you seriously, because equivalent examples written by you are not available to the public (And the pieces of writing that are available have issues, to say the least).

And by this you mean what? :eek: It is purely illogical not to listen to somebody's opinion just because there's no curriculum one can refer to, and I agree with Luis Dias. You're making another mistake, too: you're presuming that I voice my opinion because I pretend to have the ultimate solution to FreeSpace storytelling that you'll see in some uber super mod I'm working on, which is wrong. I'm not criticizing X to promote Y, I'm criticizing X, period.

Also, you don't know my gaming background, so you're not in the position to say I cannot be credible when I say something about characters and their development. I have more RPGs and jRPGs than space and flight simulators, so I know what's like to play a game where characters do matter: I believe such games have certain characteristics which at the moment we cannot reproduce in FreeSpace, and that perfectly explains my opinion.

PS
It's sad that due to many circumstances I haven't managed to release a campaign, but the fact that what I do could be used to attack me in discussions like this gives me the creeps. Why do people feel compelled to reply to critics with other critics? It's fallacious. If community member Z is wrong in a thread I don't see why this should be used as an excuse to criticize what Z has done.  :sigh:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:23:10 pm by Mobius »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I think it's clear to everyone where your opinion is coming from. Let's drop the topic.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
I'm not sure if you've made any decisions yet Lorric, but I hope you're still keen to hear alternative opinions. And, having read through this before posting, I've noticed it's coming across as somewhat... dictatorial? Inflexible? I don't know - just consider this a general disclaimer - insert your own IMO's throughout and remember that all this is just my opinion. So, with that out of the way:

There are two issues raised in this thread, so I'll start with the simpler one: your techroom missions idea. Simple answer: don't do it.

Please, don't let my tone there disguise the way in which I mean what I'm saying. It might sound dismissive, and I suppose that's not entirely unfair, but you have to know that using that technique... it's at best inelegant and at worst actively offputting to the vast majority of potential players. As it is, people just don't play single missions in our community. It's a harsh but true fact of life around here. Asking people to play what would effectively be a dozen or so single missions... look, it's just not going to happen. People are either going to be confused or annoyed. Mistakes will happen. People will forget which mission they're supposed to be playing, accidentally click the wrong one - the story will inevitably end up corrupted. And FS2 has a very powerful campaign editor integrated very tightly with the excellent mission making tools which will allow for a proper branching campaign. In this day and age, with Axem's mouse select scripts (Which ar4e actually very, very easy to use) and the various examples already done around the community (Bem Cavalgar, WiH etc.) there's no reason not to allow the player's choices ingame to drive a campaign down a branching path, there really isn't.

To be entirely honest, it feels a little like something I recognize from my own projects - a sort of modding inertia. I suspect tht when you came up with the idea for the branching campaign and the techroom missions, you may have been unaware of the alternative options for how it might otherwise be done? And now that you're aware of them, they feel like they might be too difficult to do right, and besides, you have a perfectly good way to do it already? I've felt that exact way about lots of things in the past - FSO (when it was new), HTL models, skyboxes instead of individual nebulas, using scripts, tonnes of things. It's difficult and a little bit intimidating to learn to use new skills but I promise you, it'll be worth it - especially in this case.

Now, as to the question of whether to use player characters. I'm on record many times as saying that I prefer a silent protagonist in FS campaigns. It's been done well plenty of times (not least in all four of [V]'s official campaigns), and, let's be honest, people don't expect a player character. Adding one adds a lot of headaches to the development, and will inevitably affect people's enjoyment and opinion of the campaign, so why do it? Extra work for no necessary extra gain, and a lot of potential backlash.

My biggest problem with player characters is partly the fact that a significant part of your audience just isn't going to like or identify with the character you create. This is a problem in and of itself, but it's made much worse when the narrative of a campaign forces you to play as a character who makes decisions that you personally strongly disagree with. This is particularly important if you have any kinds of shades of grey in your campaign. As the most well known player character campaigns, the BP comparison is impossible to avoid, so I'll make it here. In AoA, I didn't particularly care about Sam Bei, or identify with the character all that well. Not any reflection of the quality of the campaign, I just didn't click. And TBH, it didn;t really affect my enjoyment of the campaign since Sam never really made any decisions I disagreed with. For all the narrative stuff going on, It was basically a straightforward campaign - the GTVA are good, the Shivans are bad, kill the Shivans. A few things I didn't really understand were going on, but whatever, no big deal. However, this got turned on its head in WiH, where things were much more complex, and as such, being railroaded by the character of Laporte and the narrative necessities of the storyline was much more jarring.

So, given all that, the logical assumption would be that I would be advise against a player character. Well, almost. The reality is that all of the [V] campaigns and most of the user made silent-protagonist campaigns have been relatively black and white affairs. Very rarely have the kinds of shades of grey that WiH was able to play with been prominent, and in all honest it might be hard to play with those kind of narrative ideas with the player remaining utterly silent all the way through. However, you have an advantage that they didn't have in WiH in that you are specifically setting out to make a branching campaign. Eliminate the rails, and suddenly railroading ceases to be a problem, at least in theory.

So my suggestions would be thus: If you want to make a basic, traditional, Freespace sort of story, where the morality is pretty straightforward, keep your player silent. It's easier and will lighten your load, almost certainly making the campaign better. If, however, you want to tell a more morally complex story, then a player character might be inevitable, but for god's sake branch your campaign whenever the player has to make a significant choice, and let the player, not the writers, decide how that character thinks and works. In my opinion, those are the two peaks in the continuum of options available to you. Deviate from them, and you'll struggle.
Hello. This is a very nice post. Thank you for taking the time.

I am still interested in hearing what people have to say. Do you mean other people are seeming dictatorial and inflexible or me? I think you mean others, yes? And I think I know what you mean, both words, as you can tell yourself by putting ?s next to them, aren’t quite right. Too strong. But I see what you mean.

I’ve already said I like the idea of doing a “proper” campaign and the set of single missions at the same time. Do you think that will be acceptable?

Yes, something like that. I was aware branching campaigns were possible to create, but it all comes back to the fact that you’d never be able to get the entire mission tree in the techroom. That’s the big problem. Of course, I didn’t know about shift+ctrl+s then either, but I suspect a lot of people don’t. But even then, it doesn’t tell you where they fit in the tree, it just displays all the missions.

I wanted to do something different. It’s bad enough being new, but why is anyone going to be interested in Freespace campaign #2753 especially when made by a beginner? I wanted something different. Something I could do that’s different that doesn’t require you to be a FRED god, or turn out a bunch of new ships. And I settled on the two things that I could do to make it distinct, my branching system, and the fact that as of then and as of now, no one has released any material for Wings of Dawn. Besides Spoon of course, and a single mission created by Axem that came packaged with it. I also hope my own story will come off good, I don’t need to know how to FRED to write a story. That doesn’t mean I want the FREDding to be poor or anything, I think the missions are good and fun. If I don’t like them, why would anyone else? But they’re not going to break boundaries or be masterpieces or anything either. I need to learn to walk before I can run.

I have gone deep into the Ace Combat 5 let’s play that InsaneBaron linked now. And I was something like 95% sure I was going with a silent protagonist at the point of reading your post, and I’m now all but sure after reading yours. I intend to watch the entire LP of Ace Combat 5, so really only something going drastically wrong with that LP to put me off or a super-compelling argument in favour of player-characters on here is going to change my mind at this point.

In terms of decisions the player has to make I don’t think they’d have to make any moral decisions. Maybe they’d make a decision on how to approach a mission like was mentioned earlier in the thread, but branches would basically be determined by the player’s skill in the cockpit. I did think of one possibility I might use, but that also wouldn’t be a moral choice, just a choice. About whether to accept a challenge from an enemy or not.

I wonder if we could have a chat about the stuff you said in your fourth paragraph? I think your experiences could be helpful to me.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
You could always build a menu into one of your missions that lets the player choose any mission in any branch of the campaign. It'd be a little work but nothing impossible.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
You could always build a menu into one of your missions that lets the player choose any mission in any branch of the campaign. It'd be a little work but nothing impossible.
Wouldn't know how. They'd still have to work their way back to that mission though to make another choice. I had wondered if it would be possible to create a mission that could do such a thing at the end of the campaign, kind of like Axem's hub with all unlocked missions available, so the campaign wouldn't truly end and the whole tree could be unlocked in the techroom, but didn't post about it because of this flaw.

If I ever finish the missions, I smell a big discussion on the horizon about this stuff... :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
That's exactly what I'm saying, and I'm confident you'd figure out how to do it.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: My Dilemma - Silent "Alpha 1" Protagonist or Player-Character?
That's exactly what I'm saying, and I'm confident you'd figure out how to do it.
Well, someone else would probably have to figure it out to get rid of the flaw then tell me how to do it. Then I'd take care of the rest. :)