Author Topic: Stuff's happening in Ukraine  (Read 31561 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
It's hard isn't it, this responsibility thing? Yes, democracies are only as good as the people in them. But such is the power of responsibility. Life is hard and that's just the way it is. Reality does not get better if you just outsource all your managerial problems to a "benevolent dictator" who is sufficiently intelligent to guide all of the stupid rabble to more glorious days. As history proves again and again, it might be good for a while and then it decays rather quickly and nastily.

Democracies might be degenerative as well, there are indices of this too. However, what is evidently clear is that this degeneration is a lot slower and with a lot of warning bells.

Regarding Putin, no I still disagree with you there. Stalin was extremely reasonable by your definition. He brought Russia to a new level (superpower!), he managed to kill all his political dissidents and survive all of it, etc. Putin? Putin squandered everything. He had a real shot at doubling Russia's GDP (his own professed goal!) and even with the oil price basically skyrocketing to today's levels, he didn't even manage to go anywhere near that. It's a massive failure, russian youngsters are fleeing the country, he has completely lost the demographic war, and he's just trying to compensate for his domestic failures by creating outside threats and scapegoating all the problems unto "others", like the gays, the jews, the oligarchs, and why not, NATO, Israel, etc., etc. And if by doing so he pockets a lot of weapons' money, so much for the better.

People are praising Putin, but they shouldn't be. He's a terrible dictator, both morally and practically.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
At the risk of Godwining, if you took a snapshot of pre Barbarossa Germany, depending on your criteria, you could argue Hitler as a success.  We certainly know how that all turned out in the end, but we have the advantage of perspective.  Considering we are mid rule and the repercussions of his policies haven't quite shaken out we don't necessarily have the perspective to declare Putin a success.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
http://www.voanews.com/content/un-to-vote-on-crimea-resolution/1871773.html

somehow I have this feeling it's going to get vetoed.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Any strong leader would've improved situation in Germany about the time Hitler came to power. In fact, that's why he got elected at all. The situation was grim, and he promised improvement, and definitely had the spine to follow through on that. Hitler managed some improvement, but that wasn't the hard part. But in the long run, he was just a politician, not a manager and definitely not a general. And he wasn't intelligent enough not to try to do either, which ruined Germany in the long run and cost him the war.
Stalin was extremely reasonable by your definition. He brought Russia to a new level (superpower!), he managed to kill all his political dissidents and survive all of it, etc.
Stalin's success wasn't his own doing. Indeed, what he actually managed to do was to bring Russia to the brink of defeat by executing experienced generals. Sure, he did kill off/send to gulags all the dissidents, but they unfortunately included (from his POV) his generals, a whole lot of his staff, and finally his doctor (with fatal consequences). Stalin was downright crazy and very paranoid, the reason Russia became a superpower at his time was Lenin's groundwork, Zukhov's victories and Hitler's technology. He did a lot to secure his own position, but if they did have someone competent at the time, history could've turned out very differently.
It's hard isn't it, this responsibility thing? Yes, democracies are only as good as the people in them. But such is the power of responsibility. Life is hard and that's just the way it is. Reality does not get better if you just outsource all your managerial problems to a "benevolent dictator" who is sufficiently intelligent to guide all of the stupid rabble to more glorious days. As history proves again and again, it might be good for a while and then it decays rather quickly and nastily.
Unfortunately, what I have seen is that "the people" just can't be trusted with that kind of responsibility. Maybe in more developed countries it's different, but here, they'll steal what they can, lie and embarrass themselves, not matter if in position of power or not. I wouldn't trust the majority of people I've met with watching over a sandbox, much less the whole country. Now, I've also knew some that I would trust with my life, and with much more than just a country. I suppose if one of them ended up in power, and didn't had to deal with all the buffons populating our government, then the country would probably be in for some good times (assuming those managerial abilities scale well). But stupid people are much more numerous than intelligent ones, and moreover, it's usually the stupid ones who want power really badly. The reality, in fact, can very well get better with an intelligent, benevolent dictator at the helm. The only problem is finding a reliable source of such dictators, since they aren't easy to come by. In a democracy, degeneration might be slow in cases it's bad, but so's progress when you get a good government, meaning you're pretty much doomed to be stuck where you are. Though since getting a bad government is generally more likely than good, this is indeed a valid argument for democracy.
Putin squandered everything. He had a real shot at doubling Russia's GDP (his own professed goal!) and even with the oil price basically skyrocketing to today's levels, he didn't even manage to go anywhere near that. It's a massive failure, russian youngsters are fleeing the country, he has completely lost the demographic war, and he's just trying to compensate for his domestic failures by creating outside threats and scapegoating all the problems unto "others", like the gays, the jews, the oligarchs, and why not, NATO, Israel, etc., etc. And if by doing so he pockets a lot of weapons' money, so much for the better.
Yeah, Putin did screw the gas deal up, I suppose a lot of it came out of using it as a political pressure tool as well as the income source. This is definitely a place where his politics failed, other countries are not very interested in relying on Russian gas, because Russia has a nasty habit of threatening to cut if off whenever it doesn't like something. Putin's aggression is a mixed bag here. On one hand, it did get him a part of Georgia he wanted, among other things. On the other, he's alienating his neighbors, which definitely isn't too good for the economy.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
http://www.voanews.com/content/un-to-vote-on-crimea-resolution/1871773.html

somehow I have this feeling it's going to get vetoed.

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I don't know, maybe I am a wizard!?!
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline NeonShivan

  • Previously known as BTA
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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I don't know, maybe I am a wizard!?!

You're a wizard Harry...
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Well, there goes the Crimea. Looks like the shooting is gonna start any minute now. I don't think there's any chance of defusing this now...

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26606097

"95.5% vote for joining Russia"

Next up, Putin changes his title to 'Glorious Leader'...

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
And he'll get a Nobel Peace Prize, don't forget that. :) Regardless of what they say about it in Norway... The only way this kind of result could actually happen would be if only Russians were allowed to vote (which was probably the case). Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians definitely want nothing to do with Russia.
It is absolutely vital that Putin does not get his way in Crimea. If he does, then he won't stop there. The rest of the world has to say "enough", or we'll soon find ourselves either facing the new USSR, or actually living in it. And this isn't very pleasant, believe me.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Putin will get his way in Crimea.  Russia's in control already, and even if that poll is faked, it's still a pretty safe assumption that the majority of the Crimean population does want to join Russia.  And pretty much everyone knows it, which is why everyone attacks the legality of the referendum rather than insisting it be supervised by international observers.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
That's the irony of it though, the chances are that even without the 24-hour pro-Russian propaganda etc, even in a completely fair and observed vote, Crimea would have voted the same way, though not by a degree that makes it looks quite so corrupt. All Russia really achieved here is to turn a vote from something that would have been difficult to question the legitimacy of, even if there were treaties and other legal concerns into something that looks so blatantly like a fix up that it's almost embarrassing for them.

When it comes to world of Geopolitics, Russia is still very naive in some areas, and tend to live in the 70's where they could bully their way through. Even China can no longer support them for fear that Tibet etc decide they want a Referendum too, so all they've really done is isolate themselves from their rivals and their allies over the issue.

Whilst I do agree that Crimea will probably end up as part of Russia, I have a feeling that they have grossly underestimated the damage this is going to do them on the world stage.

 

Offline zookeeper

  • *knock knock* Who's there? Poe. Poe who?
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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Crimea should obviously be free to join whoever it wants, the only thing I resent is Russia's actions, which have basically been incredibly hypocritical bullying at gunpoint.

Ukraine ought to be applauded for their restraint though, not shooting back even at such a blatant invasion.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
why should that be applauded? not that they had much choice.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

  

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Yeah, let's start shooting against that behemoth. What could possibly go wrong?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
To be honest, I think Russia are building up to something I will tentatively call 'The Georgia Maneuver', which is why the Ukraine are being very careful about not being the first to shoot.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Probably so. Sadly, it seems like he succeeded again. I suppose this just comes with being Russian. Russian thieves stole roads, bridges, entire lengths of railroad tracks, buildings... It's only fitting that Putin would make a habit of stealing entire regions. :)
Yeah, let's start shooting against that behemoth. What could possibly go wrong?
You know, Poland did exactly that, back in '39. It's widely regarded as a good thing, though it did spark an enormous war, if they didn't, it would've probably been even worse than it was. The situation now disturbingly parallels that time, though it's different enough that we can't really base reliable estimations on this. It's just about as ugly as back then, that's for sure.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine

oh btw I see myself constantly disagreeing with you Dragon :D

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Huh st first glance I assumed Vladimir Putin character was supposed to be Julian Assange.
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