Author Topic: Stuff's happening in Ukraine  (Read 31543 times)

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Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Oh, shi... so Ukraine mess comes even here...
Okey, so i'm Russian, yap, and i got some friends in Odessa and Sevastopol.

Soo... let's strait it right: Crimea was "gifted" to Ukraine by drunk Khrushchev, so yeah... even now there a majority of people, who still think, that they are Russians.
Not me, nor my friends, don't know, who this armed people. But they are polite, and speaking clean Russian, so yeah - they can be a our soldiers or just a bunch of russian-talking people... And it's not like they invade this country. There was no one, who tried to make them go away. Rather than that locals even making photo with soldiers.

And... there is a second thing - not long ago there was an referendum on which local people decide to join Russia. Peaceful, democratic referendum. WHat's wrong with it?

And sorry for my english. -_- It still bad.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
And... there is a second thing - not long ago there was an referendum on which local people decide to join Russia. Peaceful, democratic referendum. WHat's wrong with it?

There is nothing at all wrong with a referendum. However, there is something wrong with a referendum that was organized hastily, did not give all sides equal opportunity to organize their campaigns, was moved forward several times, and apparently suffered from counting irregularities.

Now, don't get me wrong, the result could have very well been the same if the referendum had been done properly. As it stands though, it just looks like a token nod towards proper democratic process instead of the real thing.
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Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Removing of Yanukovich was made even faster... but that not the point.

There was a reason for all this hasteness. People wanted it. They wanted to be safe and don't want to see on streets of Crimea and other same, that they seen in Kiev on Maidan.
There was a fighters from the west Ukraine, who wanted to halter and even denied this referendum.
There was Obama The Democracy Bringer, and word about sightings of  some sort Private Military Company, on the West Ukraine.

So yah... it has to be done fast. And it's get some tremendous people count - even, thought you can not believe me, Tatars showed up. Not all, but still.


 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Yanukovich removed himself though, no-one removed him.

e: In fact he himself stated that he wasn't overthrown, but that he fled because he claimed he feared for his life after his car was shot at, which boils down to his word against their word, and frankly, given the behaviour of both sides lately, I wouldn't take either at face value.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:55:23 am by Flipside »

 

Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Yanukovich removed himself though, no-one removed him.
Well, if he'd stayed - he'd be dead by now. So i don't blame him, for retreating. But there was an impeachment procedure, which opposition should have used.
Damn, they broke all deals and treatys, he was giving them what they wanted.


So.. i said, that there was foto, so here it is. It's on russian site, sorry, cant find it on english ones.

http://24warez.ru/main/photo/1157454361-rossiyskie-soldaty-v-krymu-47.html

Its dated at 3 march 2014

And i can give you translation of the text, thought it's not relevant at all.

Update1: Yap, found it! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571799/Shocking-pictures-people-Crimea-taking-SELFIES-Russian-masked-gunmen-Ukraine-teeters-brink-war.html
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:58:19 am by IvKir »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I don't think anyone is questioning that there are people in Crimea who support the Russian presence there though, that's not really what is being discussed here.

 

Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I don't think anyone is questioning that there are people in Crimea who support the Russian presence there though, that's not really what is being discussed here.

If it's not, then what? I... don't want to take it to holywar or something, just it's kinda... sad, when i see, how west medias branded this decision of people as "military intervention". -_-

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
And it's not like they invade this country. There was no one, who tried to make them go away. Rather than that locals even making photo with soldiers.

And what would have have happened if the Ukrainian troops would have started to fire at the invading russian troops? Russia would have used "they shot first" as a pretext for firing back, and everyone knows that Russia has the bigger guns. What else do you think could have possible happened?

If someone barges into your house with an assault rifle in hand and there's no way you can realistically repel them, they don't get to justify their actions with "but you didn't even fight back".

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I don't think anyone is questioning that there are people in Crimea who support the Russian presence there though, that's not really what is being discussed here.

If it's not, then what? I... don't want to take it to holywar or something, just it's kinda... sad, when i see, how west medias branded this decision of people as "military intervention". -_-

What on Earth has Holy War got to do with this?

Snapshots do not a whole picture make, and do not fall into the trap of thinking that Russian media is distorting facts any less than Western Media is, they are no more a paragon of virtuous truth than ours are, there's always ulterior motives.

What worries me is when people blindly accept what the Media on either side of a politically charged situation like this say, as I've said before, the Ukraine isn't the goal, it's the ball.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
There was a reason for all this hasteness. People wanted it. They wanted to be safe and don't want to see on streets of Crimea and other same, that they seen in Kiev on Maidan.

There's a right way and a wrong way to do things though. It that really is the reason why Russian troops are in Crimea, why not instead say "We don't want a civil war on our doorstep so we want UN peacekeeprs here as fast as possible." or even "We're sending the Russian troops in as peacekeepers now and we're inviting UN forces to join us as soon as possible"? Then people wouldn't be half as suspicious about Putin's motives.

As I pointed out earlier, Russia has used the independent nation via referendum / independent nation asks to be part of Russia thing before. 
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Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine

What on Earth has Holy War got to do with this?

Snapshots do not a whole picture make, and do not fall into the trap of thinking that Russian media is distorting facts any less than Western Media is, they are no more a paragon of virtuous truth than ours are, there's always ulterior motives.

What worries me is when people blindly accept what the Media on either side of a politically charged situation like this say, as I've said before, the Ukraine isn't the goal, it's the ball.

Well, maybe Ukraine IS the goal? For now, at least. Maybe goal, is to show, how should look like democracy?
Or maybe Putin just trolling the whole world.

For now, i know one thing - people on Crimea wanted to live in Russia, not the Ukraine, not with this new government. And i know it not from media.


And what would have have happened if the Ukrainian troops would have started to fire at the invading russian troops? Russia would have used "they shot first" as a pretext for firing back, and everyone knows that Russia has the bigger guns. What else do you think could have possible happened?

If someone barges into your house with an assault rifle in hand and there's no way you can realistically repel them, they don't get to justify their actions with "but you didn't even fight back".

And there you right. But there will be fear and opposition, for the one, who barges in your home. There will be shooting, by Ukrainian troops, there will be a lot of guerrillas in that case.
And i don't see any guerrilla in Crimea. Or fear. I'ts interesting, how whole world thinks, that Crimea is invaded, but the people, who live there, think otherwise. Maybe it's that old mind controlling device working again? ;)


There's a right way and a wrong way to do things though. It that really is the reason why Russian troops are in Crimea, why not instead say "We don't want a civil war on our doorstep so we want UN peacekeeprs here as fast as possible." or even "We're sending the Russian troops in as peacekeepers now and we're inviting UN forces to join us as soon as possible"? Then people wouldn't be half as suspicious about Putin's motives.

As I pointed out earlier, Russia has used the independent nation via referendum / independent nation asks to be part of Russia thing before. 

Well, i think it's obvious, that sending UN peacekeepers will be long process... and getting mandate for sending Russian troops as peacekeeprs will be a even longer process... So, i think, it was an calculated risk. And yap, they saided, that they gonna protect Russian people in Ukraine and Crimea.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
And what would have have happened if the Ukrainian troops would have started to fire at the invading russian troops? Russia would have used "they shot first" as a pretext for firing back, and everyone knows that Russia has the bigger guns. What else do you think could have possible happened?

If someone barges into your house with an assault rifle in hand and there's no way you can realistically repel them, they don't get to justify their actions with "but you didn't even fight back".

And there you right. But there will be fear and opposition, for the one, who barges in your home. There will be shooting, by Ukrainian troops, there will be a lot of guerrillas in that case.
And i don't see any guerrilla in Crimea. Or fear. I'ts interesting, how whole world thinks, that Crimea is invaded, but the people, who live there, think otherwise. Maybe it's that old mind controlling device working again? ;)

Ukrainian troops going guerrilla wouldn't be any different. They'd still be seen as ukrainian troops shooting at russian troops who'd then invoke the right of self defense and then there'd be a proper war in there. And really, if the russian troops were actually being attacked by guerrillas, would that really make you think that they shouldn't be there?

I don't have any reason to believe that most crimeans don't want to join Russia. That's fine, let them, I have no problem with that. However, that doesn't mean I can't simultaneously find Russia's actions in the crisis to be reprehensible and irresponsible.

 

Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine

Ukrainian troops going guerrilla wouldn't be any different. They'd still be seen as ukrainian troops shooting at russian troops who'd then invoke the right of self defense and then there'd be a proper war in there. And really, if the russian troops were actually being attacked by guerrillas, would that really make you think that they shouldn't be there?

I don't have any reason to believe that most crimeans don't want to join Russia. That's fine, let them, I have no problem with that. However, that doesn't mean I can't simultaneously find Russia's actions in the crisis to be reprehensible and irresponsible.

Maybe they was irresponsible. But they keep peace in Crimea. And while west Ukraine face... well, not so polite people, who even dares to attack family's of former Berkut members, East keep the some degree of peace and quite. Though there was some shooters, who tried to provoke another crisis.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Meanwhile, the so-called Men's Rights and Pickup Artist crowd has discovered this topic and has once more proved that they are completely insane: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/risk-rated-x-geopolitics-and-the-pick-up-game
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

  

Offline IvKir

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Meanwhile, the so-called Men's Rights and Pickup Artist crowd has discovered this topic and has once more proved that they are completely insane: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/risk-rated-x-geopolitics-and-the-pick-up-game

I'm sorry for the off-topic... but who is this clowns? O_O

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
This idea that Crimean people want to join Russia and therefore all this rant against Russia is at least half badly transmitted is just plain bull****.

If it was the real case that this was the true Crimean population desire, then why the need to humilliate them at arranging this obviously fake referendum at gunpoint? A referendum that apparently had more votes than there are people. Why the need to fake a result if it the end result would have been true anyway?

If it was real, any of this bull****, then a fair referendum would be much more useful for Russia and Crimea to argue internationally their case. Instead, what we got is this. So ask yourselves, why was this done the way it was? Well, I have a simplistic theory that I think is reasonable. It's a theory about idiots.

The first level idiot will look at this and proclaim "This is the will of the Crimean people, the referendum was held, the vote is clear, they should be annexed by the Russian federation".

The second level idiot will say something like "This election was so obviously fake as those in North Korea, all the stealing tactics in place, those stupid russians really believe we take anything like this seriously?"

The third idiot will recognize the thuggery of the referendum as it really was, a masterpiece of chess play, "This thuggery has multiple purposes: first is to give it the official seal of the public's approval, the second is to show the western world how we just don't give a **** what they recognize as fair or not, the third is to humilliate every single Crimean that disagrees with this stance, by declaring by fiat that they also were in favor of being annexed when previous polls showed they mostly weren't, the fourth is to show that anyone who disagrees should leave and if not, you're welcome to this new world where we even make your opinion up for yourself."

I am still wondering what the fourth idiot is still thinking. I have yet to level up from third-level idiot to fourth-level.

 
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Meanwhile, the so-called Men's Rights and Pickup Artist crowd has discovered this topic and has once more proved that they are completely insane: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/risk-rated-x-geopolitics-and-the-pick-up-game

I'm sorry for the off-topic... but who is this clowns? O_O

The vilest people on the planet. Never heard of "Treating women like objects"? Some people consider it an art.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
For now, i know one thing - people on Crimea wanted to live in Russia, not the Ukraine, not with this new government. And i know it not from media.
If they wanted to live in Russia, then they should just move from the Ukraine to Russia.

 
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
For now, i know one thing - people on Crimea wanted to live in Russia, not the Ukraine, not with this new government. And i know it not from media.
If they wanted to live in Russia, then they should just move from the Ukraine to Russia.

It's not that simple, unfortunately. Even though the distance is not that large.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I'm aware of that, but my point is that you don't just get to say, "Oh hey I want to be part of this other country, but I'm not living there, so what the hell let's make the place I'm living part of that country!"