Author Topic: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)  (Read 13238 times)

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Offline jr2

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Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
My thought process leans more towards heavier caliber and fewer shots, but then there's this :

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”





Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:

1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

3.) Get addicted to self-improvement. “I realized very quickly after my incident that I wasn’t as good as I ought to be. You should never consider yourself ‘good enough.’ If you have a chance to get to any school, even on your own dime, study what’s going on out there and how to deal with it. Most of the training entries on my resume came after my shooting. I’m constantly thinking, ‘When is my next one?’ And ‘Will I be as prepared as I need to be?’ ”

4.) Fight for something. “To overcome the evil that wants to defeat you, you have to have something you’re fighting for. What do you care most about? You have to want to win for that more than anything else in the world. It’s going to come down to the strength of motivation: the subject’s determination to kill you versus your determination to stop him. Your turn will come — there’s no doubt in my mind about that any more — and you can’t afford to lose.”

5.) Read for recovery. “After my shooting, I had some hard days, some things in my head that I had to get sorted out and work my way through. There were two books in particular that were tremendously helpful: Deadly Force Encounters: What Cops Need to Know to Mentally and Physically Prepare for and Survive a Gunfight, by Dr. Alexis Artwohl and Loren Christensen, and On Combat, by Lt. Col. David Grossman. They’re mandatory reading if using or receiving deadly force is part of your job description, because they bring clarity to what’s going on in your body and your brain.”

6.) Bonus tips. Wear glasses when you’re on patrol, even if they’re just clear lenses. They’ll help protect your eyes. If you can’t see, you can’t fight.

Shoot at targets that have clothes on them. Hits are sometimes harder to see with clothing than when you’re shooting paper. Knowing that in advance will keep your confidence up in a gunfight.

Seek out force-on-force Simunitions training. Get accustomed to seeing guns pointed at you and fired at you — and firing back to win without hesitation. You’ll be better prepared than officers who experience this for the first time on the street and scramble to comprehend that their life is actually on the line.”

About the author
Charles Remsberg co-founded the original Street Survival Seminar and the Street Survival Newsline, authored three of the best-selling law enforcement training textbooks, and helped produce numerous award-winning training videos. His nearly three decades of work earned him the prestigious O.W. Wilson Award for outstanding contributions to law enforcement and the American Police Hall of Fame Honor Award for distinguished achievement in public service.

Buy Charles Remsberg's latest book, Blood Lessons, which takes you inside more than 20 unforgettable confrontations where officers' lives are on the line.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:57:51 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
meth: every time you fight the cops
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
The thing is, the guy apparently didn't take drugs. Adrenaline alone can do that, when in a tense firefight, you might not even notice being hit until later. He was using a .45, which surprises me (it's a pretty hefty round, one that I'd trust in a firefight), but he's right about the stopping power. The only commonly used round that would reliably stop the target on the first hit is .50 BMG, and that's because of it's tendency to disintegrate whatever it hits. Even if he did use his AR-15, he'd probably have a problem, it was sometimes reported by soldiers and marines in Iraq and Afghanistan that people managed to survive soaking up a mag of 5.56 rounds just because of adrenaline and religious zeal (some advocated bringing 7.92 battle rifles back because of that).

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
That's why 10mm and .44 magnum rounds exist, but the fact of the matter is that people just aren't good at reliably dying quickly.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Even with .44 Magnum hollowpoints, you don't have a 100% chance of dropping a guy with one-two shots, and at this point, you have to start thinking about magazine capacity. Big guns don't hold too many rounds, so unless you want to carry one of those clumsy extended-cap mags, you need to consider that you'd have less rounds per mag, and probably less of them on your person, too. 150 9mm rounds is about what an average MP5-equipped trooper would carry (5 standard MP5 mags hold that many), but 150 .44 rounds sounds like a hefty load to carry around on partol. Also, this guy was very highly trained with his gun even before the shootout. This level of skill with the gun isn't exactly representative of what police officers can do. And with a larger round, it's somewhat harder to hit your target, especially multiple times. I think it's more important to be able to reliably hit in the first place. I'm hardly good even with a 9mm (though I suck with handguns in general), but some use the .50 S&W and seem to like it.

Overall, it boils down to what you're trying to do. For personal defense, a large-caliber handgun would probably be best, since you're probably not going to last long in a prolonged firefight anyway, nor can you reliably hit the head if you're not into pistol marksmanship. Carrying a lot of rounds can be inconvenient, too. An average mugger probably isn't excited enough to have adrenaline drown out the pain when shot, making him more likely to go down fast (not to mention the very fact of having a .44 and a Dirty Harry quote shoved in their face might be enough to reconsider). A police officer, though, might deal with people who know they're coming, expect a fight or even want it. He/she can also spend more time on a firing range, though, and thus can practice more and on realistic targets. In that case, it might be good to go with a lower caliber, but better accuracy, and practice headshots on the range.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Head shot dominance is all well and good. But I go for repetition. Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
 If a clear head presents itself and I can take the time to line it up.

All well and good.

If it meant I carry eight 30 round mags and have to deal with the weight on ops. So be it. I'd normally be in an eight man section as a minimum... but assume self sufficiency as a minimum.  I always have a p38 *can opener* on me too.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
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-Uncharted Territory
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(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Offline The E

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Head shot dominance is all well and good. But I go for repetition. Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
 If a clear head presents itself and I can take the time to line it up.

All well and good.

If it meant I carry eight 30 round mags and have to deal with the weight on ops. So be it. I'd normally be in an eight man section as a minimum... but assume self sufficiency as a minimum.  I always have a p38 *can opener* on me too.

The obvious difference being that you're a soldier in a more-or-less hot warzone, in which case packing as much heat as you can is a reasonable thing to do. For a cop, who won't be shot at for most of his days out on patrol, heading in with that much firepower is .... questionable, to say the least.

IMHO, the first thing police should do is try to deescalate. Packing an entire armory is not deescalating in the slightest; and this whole narrative about american policing having to be militarized is highly bogus.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
He already had an ar-14 and a remington in his patrol car. I see it as matching the biggest potential threat they might encounter.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The only good Zod is a dead Zod
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Head shot dominance is all well and good. But I go for repetition. Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
Body shot
 If a clear head presents itself and I can take the time to line it up.

All well and good.

If it meant I carry eight 30 round mags and have to deal with the weight on ops. So be it. I'd normally be in an eight man section as a minimum... but assume self sufficiency as a minimum.  I always have a p38 *can opener* on me too.
You're a soldier, carrying a rifle or a carbine on your person (as opposed to in a car), operating in an eight-man section (as you said), equipped with military grade body armor and facing completely different opponents. There's little commonality between tactics of a soldier and policeman. Policemen who do use similar tactics to you are called Special Weapons And Tactics teams for a reason (and even then, there are some notable differences). Your usual cop will have to travel much lighter, probably wouldn't be issued the armor at all, and will have one-two buddies at best (and in that case, he was alone), and might not even have an automatic/burst rifle like you probably do and will certainly not carry it at all times - those things are somewhat cumbersome, especially if you get in and out of a car a lot (and not a ginormous HMMVV truck, we're talking sedans here).
Packing an entire armory is not deescalating in the slightest;
Well, just having the guns and armor certainly doesn't hurt anything but your mobility (not to say that's not important, though. Policemen sometimes have to just chase the crook on foot). And yeah, police should attempt to deescalate. But they should also be prepared to fight should attempts at mediation fail. In this particular case, the guy outright stated he will kill policemen if stopped. Try deescalating that without an EOD-grade suit of armor... Police definitely should have enough equipment (not only guns) to be able to respond to any situation they might encounter - afterall, that's what they're for. While they might not be able to fully contain any situation, they'll typically be the first authorities on site of any emergency, and should be capable to exacting proper first response. I don't mind police carrying a lot of guns. Indeed, they sometimes get killed when they don't, as is the case in Poland. The Mafia does have illegal guns and isn't afraid to use them. There were a few cases of policemen being under-equipped and paying for that dearly.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Quote
Police definitely should have enough equipment (not only guns) to be able to respond to any situation they might encounter - afterall, that's what they're for. While they might not be able to fully contain any situation, they'll typically be the first authorities on site of any emergency, and should be capable to exacting proper first response.

In the overwhelming amount of situations a police officer is called upon to respond, guns will not be necessary at all. In at least some situations, increasing the amount of guns on the scene does not help at all, and there have been far too many accidental shootings by police officers in the past to make a good case for having officers on patrol being armed at all times.

Quote
There were a few cases of policemen being under-equipped and paying for that dearly.

This will always happen. Even if you kit out your police officers in the latest in personal armor, equip them with Land Warrior-type integrated combat information systems and let them drive around with M1A1s under heavy drone cover, you will always lose at least some to the actions of criminals. But that's beside the point. I am more concerned about losing civilians to some cops' itchy trigger finger, because someone decided to call in a prank SWAT call.
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I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Me too. Complete agreement there.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
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Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
@The E: what exactly do you mean by deescalation?
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Dragon

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
In the overwhelming amount of situations a police officer is called upon to respond, guns will not be necessary at all.
Of course. In that case, guns simply won't be used. Police are not allowed to shoot at a petty thief stealing a head of cabbage from the stand, and they don't do that. That's why I said "equipment". It applies to things like fire extinguishers and medical kits, too - police can encounter any sort of situation (remember, they're usually first trained response of any kind on site). However, situations involving guns are the most dangerous, because in that case, somebody deliberately wants to kill either them, or someone else.
This will always happen. Even if you kit out your police officers in the latest in personal armor, equip them with Land Warrior-type integrated combat information systems and let them drive around with M1A1s under heavy drone cover, you will always lose at least some to the actions of criminals. But that's beside the point. I am more concerned about losing civilians to some cops' itchy trigger finger, because someone decided to call in a prank SWAT call.
Of course it will. It's a dangerous job, there was a case two SWAT guys got blown up by a mine set up by the criminals (holed up in a fortified house, no less). However, it's possible to significantly reduce those events by just giving the police proper equipment. A gun, a shotgun and a rifle will ensure that except for truly pathological situations (like large-scale organized gangs), the first-response patrol will be capable of at least calling backup and surviving long enough for it to arrive. If they're unarmed, any punk with a gun (or even a knife and lots of muscle) could kill or seriously wound a cop, which can and does happen on occasion. The whole point of police is that they're not there to just ask you nicely to stop whatever mischief you're up to. That's the first thing they usually do, but they definitely need to be able to back their words up if need arises. Criminals are a diverse lot. Sometimes they go quietly, sometimes they will attack the cops, or someone else, meaning that if they're not stopped right now, somebody will die. Don't know about you, but for me, if you have to chose between the life of criminal and innocent person, I'd chose the innocent person any day. It's always preferable to capture the crook alive, but if he has to die to protect someone else, so be it. And I'd rather have police capable of making that happen than standing idly/ducking for cover waiting for SWAT to arrive (with the crook possibly killing someone or escaping during that time).

And TBH, if someone prank-calls in such a way that'll result in a SWAT team showing up at the door, that idiot deserves everything that's coming to them. Which, BTW, will probably be flashbang+tear gas, then a solid clobber and a harsh, effective subduing, because that's how they usually roll, despite being armed to the teeth. To quote SWAT4: "SWAT is a life preserving organization", and their approach reflects that. In fact, I have a feeling that accidental shootings by police are more often than not the result of people doing stuff they really shouldn't be doing, like fooling around with fake guns, making sudden moves (bad idea in any tense situation, guns or not) or failing to do what they're told (really bad idea in any emergency in general). If police's on the scene, it usually means the situation is serious, because the police will definitely treat it as one. People sometimes forget that.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
And TBH, if someone prank-calls in such a way that'll result in a SWAT team showing up at the door, that idiot deserves everything that's coming to them. Which, BTW, will probably be flashbang+tear gas, then a solid clobber and a harsh, effective subduing, because that's how they usually roll, despite being armed to the teeth.

Or, it can end up with someone being killed for the crime of showing up at the door with a wiiMote in hand.

Once you militarize your police, they will respond to calls with a more aggressive mindset than necessary or desirable for a police force. That guy in the OP? That dude who believes he has to carry 3 guns and lots of ammo on his person at all times? That's exactly the kind of person who will have a predisposition to respond to something he perceives as a threat with lethal force, even if the situation does not warrant it.

Quote
To quote SWAT4: "SWAT is a life preserving organization", and their approach reflects that. In fact, I have a feeling that accidental shootings by police are more often than not the result of people doing stuff they really shouldn't be doing, like fooling around with fake guns, making sudden moves (bad idea in any tense situation, guns or not) or failing to do what they're told (really bad idea in any emergency in general). If police's on the scene, it usually means the situation is serious, because the police will definitely treat it as one. People sometimes forget that.

Yeah, I can read the PR stuff police departments put out too. However, did you know that police officers are really good at manufacturing excuses for why their behaviour was actually justified? Especially when there are people out there who want to get a bit of justice for their lost daughter, son, parent, or dog?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
A Georgia SWAT team recently executed a no-knock warrant in search of a suspect they believed might be a drug dealer. After picking their way through a front yard with children's toys and past a minivan, they entered the target building, leading with a flashbang. The flashbang landed in a two-year-old's crib. The hole the grenade left was apparently deep enough that you could see his bare ribs.

The parents were kept away from the child and told he'd lost a tooth. The SWAT team searched the building and found no drugs and no suspect. Afterwards, they claimed there was no way they could have known there were children in the house. The kid survived with a hole in his chest and possible brain damage.

This was not an unusual outcome.

The use of militarized police units in the 'War on Drugs' is an insanity. Police denial of responsibility or culpability for the tragedies that result is a regularity. No-knock warrants and dynamic entries are military tactics, meant for military situations, and they habituate officers to kill while positioning innocent civilians as expendable. The victims have no effective recourse. Less than one percent of brutality complaints lead to disciplinary action.

I've edited out the last paragraph as it's inappropriate and undermines what is an otherwise sensible post. // G5K
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 01:39:21 pm by Goober5000 »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
In fact, I have a feeling that accidental shootings by police are more often than not the result of people doing stuff they really shouldn't be doing, like fooling around with fake guns, making sudden moves (bad idea in any tense situation, guns or not) or failing to do what they're told (really bad idea in any emergency in general).

Most SWAT deployments are for searches for drugs - no reports of armed suspects, no certainty there is even any criminal activity happening.

You 'have a feeling' and your feeling is wrong. Accidental shootings by police are more often than not the result of heavily armed paramilitary units being deployed where they do not belong and aren't necessary.

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If police's on the scene, it usually means the situation is serious, because the police will definitely treat it as one. People sometimes forget that.

People 'forget' this because it's factually untrue. SWAT is a special unit. If they are on the scene, it usually means - 80% of the time, in the case of SWAT rollouts - that they are serving a drug warrant, a direct or indirect result of America's policy in the War on Drugs, border militarization, and military contractor profits. Most of these warrants do not need tactical response. Certainly a $1000 civil fine that is 15 days late doesn't require a dynamic entry and the beating of every family member in the building.

So we come to the last, and greatest, factual untruth:

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Of course. In that case, guns simply won't be used. Police are not allowed to shoot at a petty thief stealing a head of cabbage from the stand, and they don't do that.

http://the7thpwr.wordpress.com/accidental-police-shootings/

Cops **** up. The way that they **** up is a result of their training and priming. When cops **** up, they get away with it. Minority communities disproportionately bear the brunt.

Stop blaming the victims. Your position is unsubstantiated by the facts on the ground, and your attitude that anyone who gets killed by a wrong-address no-knock raid somehow deserves it because they made a sudden wrong move is morally repugnant. That situation should never have arisen in the first place. The burden of survival under the gun of a heavily armed paramilitary cop is not on the innocent citizen, it is on the cop.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
You know, Batts, double-posting is discouraged around here.  :rolleyes:

But, more on-topic, maybe we need a split, I don't know.  Or a lock, whichever.  :yes:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Ahahah, please fact check this for me, I have to write but I almost can't believe this:

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Kenneth Chamberlain Jr. with a picture of his father, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., who was shot and killed by police responding to an aid call after he inadvertently activated his LifeAid pendant. Chamberlain requested that the police leave but an officer can be heard on the LifeAid recording responding "I don't give a **** nigger, open the door!" A LifeAid dispatcher requested that the aid call be cancelled but was told "We don't need any mediators." Chamberlain stated "This is my sworn testimony. White Plains officers are coming in here to kill me." Police then entered Chamberlain's apartment, tased him, shot him with a beanbag round, then shot him to death. A grand jury declined to indict the officers involved.

Wearable cameras seem like a good and available step to take to guard against abuses.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
But, more on-topic, maybe we need a split, I don't know.  Or a lock, whichever.  :yes:
Why?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Interesting article from policeone.com (NOT a gun control thread, just tactics)
Seems legit.

And yeah, fitting Officers with cameras is a really good way of making sure those officers don't do anything stupid. It's also a really good way of losing a lot of cameras.
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