[Mr. Vega]

Couple of short points since I should be sleeping now instead of debating things online...

That quote I posted was directed at you forumites as something to ponder, not as an accusation against anyone here. The "accused" - the parties guilty of what the quote refers to - are basically the protesters worldwide, the media, and the U.N. Those are the entities who repeatedly single out Israel for everything from genocide to apartheid to washing whites and colors together, while remaining silent on far greater conflicts worldwide resulting in far greater numbers of casualties. It's a double-standard.

Sandwich has only ever as far as I can tell taken issue with Hamas, not the Palestinian people, and I'm sure we can all agree that Hamas is the biggest problem in this conflict.

"the Palestinian/Islamic culture of incitement, hatred, and death needs to stop before anything resembling a real peace can be achieved"

Just because I identify Hamas as our enemy doesn't mean that the Palestinians are automatically angelic people who can do no wrong. I stand by my statement, and I'll even expand it: Any culture where murder, hatred, bloodlust, and the "love of death" is praised, encouraged, and taught to children needs to change before one can expect to be able to attain a lasting peace with them.

Finally, regarding the accusations that Israel "played" right into the hands of Hamas when it responded the way it did - that's the difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas is playing games first - media manipulation, world sympathy, etc. - and defending its civilians, well, not at all. On the other hand, Israel is defending its civilians first, and worrying about world opinion later.

So if you want to keep playing your armchair politics and accuse us of anything, Kara, at least accuse us of things we're guilty of - defending our own.

Defending them from a vicious attack by a UN school? Or the Gazan freshwater plant? Or the four hospitals Israel has bombed? Or four children playing on the beach?

[karajorma]

Seriously Sandwich? You're going to defend Israel's policy of collective guilt as "defending your own"? I'm sorry but arresting 300 people for a murder has absolutely nothing to do with defending the population of Israel or attempting to get justice for a crime.

I simply do not believe that was the reason Operation Brother's Keeper was initiated and if it was, you really need to get rid of whoever came up with that idea cause they really SUCK at their job.

But go on. Explain to me what Operation Brother's Keeper was really about. I want to know how it was not just a deliberate provocation in response to Hamas' and Fatah's attempts to bury the hatchet.

[Mr. Vega]

Those are the entities who repeatedly single out Israel for everything from genocide to apartheid to washing whites and colors together, while remaining silent on far greater conflicts worldwide resulting in far greater numbers of casualties. It's a double-standard.

So the best defense you can muster is that others have killed a lot more civilians than Israel? That you should be lauded for your moderation? Does a nation that goes to "extraordinary lengths" to minimize civilian casualties bomb hospitals, water and power plants, UN schools serving as refugee centers (whose staff have loudly decried any attempt to hide weapons within its walls when they have discovered them)? Does it shell children on the beach from visual range? Does it bomb civilians who have returned to their homes to recover their possessions during a ceasefire (the breaking of which was started as far as anyone can tell by Israeli artillery fire)?

Let's not engage in vague talks about human shields and "defending their own." Let's see what the Israeli government has actually done with its munitions. Can the bombing of any target be justified? Let's find out.

And if Israel is committing war crimes, then congratulations, you're no different from us when we bombed farming villages in South Vietnam and herded the fleeing civilians into concentration camps to isolate them from aiding the Viet Cong. You're no different from Britain when it massacred unarmed Indian civilians gathering in public during the Independence movement. Perhaps Israel is like all other nations. You have your mission to create a safe homeland for your people, which is an altogether more noble goal than our Manifest Destiny to reach the Pacific, which we used as an excuse to commit genocide upon the Native Americans. We all have our unjust justifications for state violence, and I've seen this happen too many times in history to be fooled by you now.

[karajorma]

The (unrevised) 1999 platform of Israel’s governing party, Binyamin Netanyahu’s Likud, “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” And for those who like to obsess about meaningless charters, the core component of Likud, Menahem Begin’s Herut, has yet to abandon its founding doctrine that the territory on both sides of the Jordan is part of the Land of Israel.

Hang on a sec, isn't that the exact same ****ing thing we use to claim that Hamas would never accept peace?

[Mr. Vega]

Karajorma, no! Don't bring the facts out!

Here's another one, this one about Hamas:

On December 1, 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees," and "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles."

This will be denied to the death, but it's certainly not inconceivable that if such a referendum ever actually occurred and independence was agreed to, Hamas would be assimilated (whether its leaders like it or not) into a peaceful political system like Sinn Fein is now in Ireland.

[karajorma]

Hamas also offered a 10 year truce and has talked with the ANC about using the same tactics the ANC taught Sinn Fein with Israel. But of course that goes against the narrative people like to present of the peace loving Israelis being attacked by the crazy religious warmongers in Hamas.

I've said it multiple times, they're both as bad as each other.

All ****ing silent over this. And no, I'm not speaking about us people in the internets or forums or whatever. I'm speaking about coordinated protests on the streets, movements, and so on. All these coordinated events only point against Israel. Well while I would agree with them that Israel is behaving on the wrong side of the moral line here, I'm extremely cynical and unsympathetic towards these protesters and movements that rail against Israel and for Palestine. They don't give a **** about human lives, they do give a **** about Israel though, in the worst sense.

Well unlike the others the West frequently backs Israel. I for one can understand getting upset against Israel if you are an American. You are funding what is going on in Gaza. Why wouldn't you organise protests against something your nation is spending billions of dollars on?

Can you really say that any of the other conflicts have that sort of interest from America? Can you really say that in any of the other conflicts mentioned the West hasn't come down quite heavily against the people responsible for the deaths?

Perhaps instead of asking why Israel is being singled out for so much hatred, we should ask why is it being singled out for so much love from the West first?

[jr2]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/08/04/Hamas-Combat-Manual-Endorses-Use-of-Civilian-Human-Shields

They captured an operations manual for Hamas.

As for the UN schools, I do believe that even the UN admitted that they found weapons stashed in 3 other schools.

[karajorma]

As for the UN schools, I do believe that even the UN admitted that they found weapons stashed in 3 other schools.

And that makes it okay to bomb them?

[jr2]

Well, there were weapons caches and supposedly Israeli forces came under attack from that location (not surprising). Given the situation, or does look like it would have been better to send ground troops given the refugees in the school. However, I'm not privy to what information the IDF did or did not have. They are supposedly investigating the incident.

[666maslo666]

As for the UN schools, I do believe that even the UN admitted that they found weapons stashed in 3 other schools.

And that makes it okay to bomb them?

Yes, if they have good reason to believe there is a weapon stash then that would make it OK to bomb them. But ideally they should put out a warning and a knock on the roof missile before the attack to give the people some time to escape. Or a ground attack.

[karajorma]

Did you not read the Noam Chomsky article? It makes it pretty clear that the warnings are virtually useless.



Oh and for those talking about the indoctrination of Hamas against Israel....


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-name

[666maslo666]

Did you not read the Noam Chomsky article? It makes it pretty clear that the warnings are virtually useless.

I didnt, source?

[karajorma]

Scroll up. Mr Vega posted it earlier.

[Mr. Vega]

Here's an article about a leaked Isreali PR document detailing how to lie to the American public:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

[Dragon]

Here's an article about a leaked Isreali PR document detailing how to lie to the American public:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

Remember when I said someone in Israel finds this war bloody convenient? Well, looks like it's true. As always, it shows what the government says is not always in line with what it does.
Thought TBH, that's to be expected, and Hamas likely has a similar booklet on how to play the victim card to the full extent. I think both sides should be ashamed of themselves by this point. Not that they really care about "the men on the street".

[Mr. Vega]

Here's the actual report. The part starting at page 75 is my favorite:

http://www.stopdebezetting.com/documents/pdf/090713Hasbara%20handboek_tip_report.pdf

[Dragon]

Love it. It's certainly genuine, looks like really professional. They know who they're talking to and how to do it:

Also, It’s “militant Islam,” not “Islamo-fascism.” If you want the people in power in
the American government and around the world today to listen and learn, you need
language that doesn’t sound like it came from George W. Bush.

You could probably run for POTUS with more booklets like that.

The right of return should, IMO, be discussed, no matter how anyone tries to prevent this. That Jews were historically evicted from a whole lot of places doesn't mean they should do the same for other people. Especially that in Poland, for example, Jews are gaining back property they lost during WWII. Sometimes evicting the former tenants... Sounds familiar?

[Luis Dias]

I'm all for that, but I will still keep calling it "islamo-fascism", because that's what it is really, and it's even an euphemism at best. I don't recall european fascism of the twentieth century beheading people for not wearing burkas or what not.

[Dragon]

No, it was shooting and gassing them for wearing hair braids, among other things. Same thing when you get down to it and beheading is most likely the least painful option, TBH. But "fascism" invokes Godwin's Law, and it's a good way to stop being taken seriously. "Militant Islam" is better, since that implies Islam might be non-militant and avoids Godwin's Law. That's how rhetoric works, it requires intelligence to see a point when you're calling spade a spade, but if you use rhetoric, you can convince a lot more people to your point, sometimes without even mentioning what it actually is. It's pretty much the only way you can get your way in politics in the civilized world (in an uncivilized one, like Poland, you just need to be controversial and loud enough). Obama in particular is great at this, say what you will about the man, but he know how to speak. This booklet took a lot of hints from him, and openly acknowledges this.

[Luis Dias]

Fascism is not Nazism, and both you and me should know better than these shallow commentaries. I live in a country where 40 years ago we were inside a nasty fascist rule. I don't think it's such a godwin label, at least for anyone who knows what the **** the terminologies refer to. Of course, an argument can always be made that ignorant ****s will always mischaracterize these terms and think "Ah there goes the godwin again", but I am really for pushing back against deferring to the common stupid denominator.