[Nyctaeus]

Two cents from me: More active Wiki maintainers!

A lot of models, campaigns and other stuff is waiting for their deserved articles. While some mods like Frontlines, BP or ASW used to have their own Wiki maintainers, a lot of projects don't have such persons at all. Not everyone knows how to write proper articles.

And the second: YOUR ATTENTION!
When some user posts his first mission/model etc, just mow your ass, play it, check it, say some good word, provide some feedback... Whatever! There is no worse thing, than posting some stuff you hardly worked on for hours and being ignored than everyone, but 2-3 users.

[Kie99]

Do people around here prefer to wait years for super-awesome campaigns with all the bells and whistles? Or would they be willing to accept some less-fancy campaigns, if that meant more releases and less of the between-megaprojects drought we're seeing these days? Of course, I'm well aware that the level of a campaign's complexity is up to individual FREDders, but what would people personally prefer?

I know a lot of people simply don't take it up. They open up a mission in WiH and spend some time looking at the events and decide the bar is too high now. They're not completely wrong, either.

You think?  I reckon if someone put out a competently FREDed campaign with a good story, but no overly complex missions or huge modpacks, it wouldn't suffer from comparison with Blue Planet.  If you're trying to actualise your vision of Freespace 3 then you might get a bit of that but I'd say the less ambitious campaigns would be as popular as ever.  If there were anything as good as Derelict or Homesick or Sync released tomorrow I expect they'd get the praise they deserved. 

If there are significant amounts of people not bothering because of the bar being too high it's a real shame.

[Lorric]

I've been thinking the bar is too high. We released Frontlines 2334 and 2335, and while Lepanto and I were only brought in on the last few months of the project, I've seen what went into it over the better part of a year. The campaign doesn't pull up trees, nor is it meant to, but it's still very good quality imo, and set in a imo woefully under-explored period of Freespace history, the Terran-Vasudan War. It's got custom models and weapons, and a place to call home here on the forums, and it really didn't get much attention when released. I'm not complaining or anything, it just is what it is I guess.

[Rodo]

And the second: YOUR ATTENTION!
When some user posts his first mission/model etc, just mow your ass, play it, check it, say some good word, provide some feedback... Whatever! There is no worse thing, than posting some stuff you hardly worked on for hours and being ignored than everyone, but 2-3 users.

Yep, I've noticed this too.
I've tried in the past giving feedback to new fredders, hoping some more ppl would join but it seems it's always the same 3 or 4 guys doing it.

[Lepanto]

Yeah; while we really look forward to the masterpieces from our top-class FREDders, people with less or no FREDding experience can still contribute to the community by making campaigns with fewer or no new assets.

The recent newbie influx from Steam might be a good opportunity to try and drum up some more FREDding talent. Maybe a Newbie FREDders' Contest, with a deadline in six months or so? Just putting that out there.

[jr2]

Post it in the Steam forums?

[Akalabeth Angel]

I've been thinking the bar is too high. We released Frontlines 2334 and 2335, and while Lepanto and I were only brought in on the last few months of the project, I've seen what went into it over the better part of a year. The campaign doesn't pull up trees, nor is it meant to, but it's still very good quality imo, and set in a imo woefully under-explored period of Freespace history, the Terran-Vasudan War. It's got custom models and weapons, and a place to call home here on the forums, and it really didn't get much attention when released. I'm not complaining or anything, it just is what it is I guess.

One possibility might be that people are becoming more picky with what they play, not because of quality concerns but because of time concerns. The population of HLP is aging and a lot of people I suspect have less free time. Plus nowadays, a lot of games out there seem designed to monopolize your time playing them. That's in addition to the plethora of titles available, good and bad.

[Lorric]

I've been thinking the bar is too high. We released Frontlines 2334 and 2335, and while Lepanto and I were only brought in on the last few months of the project, I've seen what went into it over the better part of a year. The campaign doesn't pull up trees, nor is it meant to, but it's still very good quality imo, and set in a imo woefully under-explored period of Freespace history, the Terran-Vasudan War. It's got custom models and weapons, and a place to call home here on the forums, and it really didn't get much attention when released. I'm not complaining or anything, it just is what it is I guess.

One possibility might be that people are becoming more picky with what they play, not because of quality concerns but because of time concerns. The population of HLP is aging and a lot of people I suspect have less free time. Plus nowadays, a lot of games out there seem designed to monopolize your time playing them. That's in addition to the plethora of titles available, good and bad.

Oh yes, for sure there will be other factors besides just quality raising the bar.

I sometimes wonder what it would have been like for me if I had arrived early on in HLP's life. It's brilliant that there is so much content for me to play, and I'm sure that coming in late is better than coming in early because of that, but when a campaign in Frontlines is released, where the backbone of the campaign is created by a multi-talented 13 year veteran of the community in Black Wolf, over the most part of a year, set in a blank canvas setting in the Terran-Vasudan War, gets a space on the board, gets highlighted, gets on the news ticker, and receives not much attention upon release, what hope is there for a newbie these days? It's not all doom and gloom of course, Lepanto has done well with his Battle Captains missions. And there are other new projects in the works by new people, who I wish luck.

[Nyctaeus]

I've been thinking the bar is too high. We released Frontlines 2334 and 2335, and while Lepanto and I were only brought in on the last few months of the project, I've seen what went into it over the better part of a year. The campaign doesn't pull up trees, nor is it meant to, but it's still very good quality imo, and set in a imo woefully under-explored period of Freespace history, the Terran-Vasudan War. It's got custom models and weapons, and a place to call home here on the forums, and it really didn't get much attention when released. I'm not complaining or anything, it just is what it is I guess.

Yup, we had the same thing with Shadow Genesis. While this is one of the biggest mods and longest campaigns ever released and many people enjoyed it, we didn't grab as many applauses as I wanted. I think SG was mostly enjoyed by players who likes hard, bigger missions with a lot of tactics in, and Frontlines - by old-school players. Rest of the community prefer something less sophisticated.

Yeah; while we really look forward to the masterpieces from our top-class FREDders, people with less or no FREDding experience can still contribute to the community by making campaigns with fewer or no new assets.

Sometimes I have this strange feeling, that tells me that people won't care about anything, which is not BP . Majority of newcomers are people, who familiarized themselves with FS in age of BP, Vassago's Dirge, Bem Cavalgar and other top-quality projects with much more modern mission design. Actually I love Frontlines - great quality, old-school project, but majority of players prefer something fresh... And not too hard for average player. Too bad, but on the other hand, it forces us to develop more advanced missions.

The recent newbie influx from Steam might be a good opportunity to try and drum up some more FREDding talent. Maybe a Newbie FREDders' Contest, with a deadline in six months or so? Just putting that out there.

+1

[Akalabeth Angel]

I sometimes wonder what it would have been like for me if I had arrived early on in HLP's life. It's brilliant that there is so much content for me to play, and I'm sure that coming in late is better than coming in early because of that, but when a campaign in Frontlines is released, where the backbone of the campaign is created by a multi-talented 13 year veteran of the community in Black Wolf, over the most part of a year, set in a blank canvas setting in the Terran-Vasudan War, gets a space on the board, gets highlighted, gets on the news ticker, and receives not much attention upon release, what hope is there for a newbie these days? It's not all doom and gloom of course, Lepanto has done well with his Battle Captains missions. And there are other new projects in the works by new people, who I wish luck.

Oh is that a T-VWar campaign? Hmmn. Might have to check it out. Though don't have Freespace installed and haven't played in a few years

[Lorric]

I sometimes wonder what it would have been like for me if I had arrived early on in HLP's life. It's brilliant that there is so much content for me to play, and I'm sure that coming in late is better than coming in early because of that, but when a campaign in Frontlines is released, where the backbone of the campaign is created by a multi-talented 13 year veteran of the community in Black Wolf, over the most part of a year, set in a blank canvas setting in the Terran-Vasudan War, gets a space on the board, gets highlighted, gets on the news ticker, and receives not much attention upon release, what hope is there for a newbie these days? It's not all doom and gloom of course, Lepanto has done well with his Battle Captains missions. And there are other new projects in the works by new people, who I wish luck.

Oh is that a T-VWar campaign? Hmmn. Might have to check it out. Though don't have Freespace installed and haven't played in a few years

Oh yes, pure T/V War. Check out the Frontlines board.

EDIT: @ Betrayal

Shadow Genesis has been on my hard drive for quite some time. If I get around to playing it, I'll be sure to drop by and leave some feedback.

[CT27]

The campaigns I'm really looking forward to are (in no particular order):

The rest of Frontlines (I've heard more is planned)
Shadow Genesis 2
Dusk Wars 2
Inferno:  Nostos
BP:  WIH Act 4-5
Battle Captains:  Steele
Blackwater Operations (Depending on who you ask, some say there's still a chance for this)
Sophrosyne
VeniceMirror

That doesn't mean I won't play other campaigns coming out, these are just the ones I know about that we could see someday

[Lorric]

(I've heard more is planned)

Yes.

For me, Inferno Nostos is what interests me the most.

Sophrosyne is next even though I haven't checked out properly what it is, but simply since I know what Lepanto can do, so I'm interested in seeing it, whatever it is!

After that, Rheyah's Shetland/Ephesus.

Naturally, I'm also interested in future Frontlines Campaigns. I was very interested in the campaign long before I became a team member.

[Nyctaeus]

SG was somekind of experiment. How advanced tactics, bigger battles and overall incrased realism would be successful in actual campaign... And If. Well, I must say, that after finishing a lot of mods I have noticed, that the most popular mods are the ones full of innovations, not too hard and the most important, with instinctive mission design. SG requires a big dose of tactical planning, rather than pilot skills, and not everyone likes that. Mods which put more input on something, like SG with it's advanced tactics, and Frontlines with strong FS1 feel are less popular because are specialized. Mods like BP are ballanced in that case, and not focused on any individual aspect of gameplay [except for Tenebra].

Conclussion: If you want your project to be popular, make it attractive for everyone.

I hope I won't screw anything next time when I release something and that time is closer... And closer...

[mjn.mixael]

Close, but I think you are missing something.

BP is successful because it's got an intriguing story. Not only that, but it portrays it in a way that is fun. The missions are generally unique and varied so the campaign doesn't get old. No one gets sick of doing the same type of mission over and over and over again. It also hooks people with a healthy dose of "OMG, didn't know FS could do that!" too. It is always very well tested and generally solid to play. When you load up BP, you know you are going to play something that generally won't leave you with a broken, never-ending mission.

When the story fails, the missions need to draw the player back. If the missions get boring, then your next bet is some sort of "ooooh!" factor. Barring that, it should at least be well tested, but that's a long shot.

So, in short... Intriguing story, varied missions, ooooh factor, well tested.

--------

I would say that a big reason I never finished SG was because it was the same thing over and over. And, as you have said, it's a loooooooong campaign.


So what HLP really needs is people who can FRED with patience. It takes time to create multiple mission styles and to test.. that's not even to mention any sort of story (and the never-ending tweaking that happens with it). I feel like a lot of the single missions I played were guys who whipped up the mission, didn't thoroughly test it, and when I posted feedback about ways to make it more solid, they didn't want to take the time to put that to practice. It's work to make sure missions don't have dead spots or broken event logic.

[Lorric]

Of course, a group of FREDders will be more likely you would think to be able to collectively deliver a campaign of varying mission styles than a single one. And that same diversity woul be helpful if they tested each others' missions.

It's a lot harder these days for a single person to create a campaign. The newbie FREDder contest is a good idea, but what about an idea to get a group of new FREDders together and instead of compete against each other, they could form a team. Maybe some community veterans could help them out to produce a work collectively?

[Axem]

That was called FRED Academy and the number of campaigns they have released is... none (so far!). That's not to say its been useless, just that past experience suggests you aren't likely to get an actual campaign out of the deal. The experience gained with it can be valuable however.

And single people working alone have made the great campaigns we all enjoy: Homesick, Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius, The Antagonist, Wings of Dawn.

Working in a team sounds great, but unless you've got a really close group of people that have great chemistry with each other, there's a fatal chance of "someone else will do that for me" that can stall development.

I don't know if the bar has been set too high for newcomers. Things like The Antagonist and Burning Heaven were first ever campaigns for bigchunk and LoneKnight, and they were quite impressive. It takes drive and determination to get things done. Great feedback and guidance helps with both. I try my best to generate exposure for the campaigns and models that people are making. However we're still a pretty niche group. Anyone looking for space sims is probably waiting for the next X-Wing or waiting for Star Elite Spacefighters instead of FreeSpace.

[CT27]

I would also add these two to my list:

Sophrosyne
Venice Mirror

[Nyctaeus]

I remember we tried to make somthing like this on freespace.pl - inside polish community, when the freespace.pl was still open and we failed. Every team needs leader/leaders and some idea to base the project on. Mostly because projects are more ambitious and sophisticated today and it's hard to find a team to share the ideas you have.

Shadow Genesis was made by me and my brother with a little external help with effects and models from Droid, FSF, Kobrar and Jessnec, but they are not members of our team. Small teams are best teams. Community members should be more helpful for aspiring modders with their pet projects, newcomers should be not affraid to ask for help if they need something.

Yeah, TheHound. If you read this - don't screw up with Venice Mirror .

[jr2]

So when Star Wars : Fate of the Galaxy comes out, that should generate some exposure.