[Luis Dias]

A let's play from Sargon about the game in question. It's only incomplete, but it delivers on what the game is about

[AdmiralRalwood]

why would removing user's comments on the internet be any different?

Just for clarity's sake, do you consider sites that require moderator pre-approval a form of censorship as well?

he was too wrapped up in locking horns with people over semantics to realise what was going on

That is so far from an accurate description that it's not even laughable.

[Lorric]

That is so far from an accurate description that it's not even laughable.

Well sorry if I misrepresented you.

I don't want to derail the thread, but you can feel free to correct me if you like. Or we can just leave that alone, it might be best.

[Polpolion]

why would removing user's comments on the internet be any different?

Just for clarity's sake, do you consider sites that require moderator pre-approval a form of censorship as well?

Sites that you can communicate with others on, yes, I would say that the moderators are obviously censoring anyone they do not approve. As far as I'm aware this is only really ever done to stop botspam so it's hardly a travesty. Even well respected free speech blogs have blatantly censor-laden comment policies. Is censoring botspam, irrelevancies, and stupidity bad for society? I doubt it. But it's easy to take online censorship less seriously than it is when 99% of who you're censoring are on the level of botnet handlers selling magic pills.

[AdmiralRalwood]

why would removing user's comments on the internet be any different?

Just for clarity's sake, do you consider sites that require moderator pre-approval a form of censorship as well?

Sites that you can communicate with others on, yes.

Okay, your definition of "controlling freedom of expression" is obviously a lot wider than mine. Because while

Bleeping swear words on television is a form of censorship

I don't really see this as analogous to that; I see it as analogous to not airing the show in the first place, which I do not see as a form of censorship.

Editing someone's post to remove a word is censorship; preventing them from posting at all is not, as far as I'm concerned. Deleting posts is just retroactive prevention; they didn't have to display the posts in the first place.

[deathfun]

From what I'm getting from this, Ralwood is saying censorship is the process of seeing a piece beforehand, editing certain stuff, then giving it out to the public

While someone putting something out on public without edit, having it deemed inappropriate and then taking away the person's privilege to have that post posted by deletion, is just suppression of content that goes against certain policies



Everyone needs to remember the italicized bolded bit. You do not have a right to post on these sites. You only have the privilege to do so which can be revoked pending your breaking the agreement *that you willingly said yes to* when first joining the website

[Mr. Vega]

I played Depression Quest and was actually quite impressed by it, mainly for it's accuracy in depicting depression. And I have seen no hard evidence that indicates to me that this is anything more than an especially vicious attack from the usual misogynistic cretins in the gaming community, aided by a piece of **** jilted boyfriend willing to say or do anything to get back at her for whatever the hell he thinks she did to him. Seriously, reddit is home to some of the most vile scumbags on the internet this side of a Neo Nazi rally - trust me, they're getting what's coming to them. And Bobboau, you need to calm the **** down and not be so easily manipulated by serial liars.

The scale of the reaction is largely fueled by the censoring. People don't like it when they find out they have been manipulated, so this story hits several multipliers in that regard the censorship and the major conflicts of interest that are apparently allowed to run unchecked. I suppose with the apathy on display in this thread I can see how it could have come to this.

Do you have any ****ing idea of the kind of harassment female gaming journalists get on a daily basis just for existing, much less for talking about women's issues? These guys need no fuel whatsoever to start a crusade against "feminist scum". I have no trouble whatsoever believing they'd spend hours of their day fabricating evidence in the hope of taking one of their already favorite targets down. Would you like me to present hard evidence of how far these pieces of **** are willing to go to attack someone they don't like? I can bury you in it.

Give me some harder than hard evidence that this is anything other than a harassed, slandered and very frightened woman engaging in some ill-advised tactics to defend herself (if she's even the actual source of these takedowns). I can't go anywhere on the ****ing internet now without pieces of **** crying out how they're being oppressed because someone has the gall to talk about the amount of crap women have to deal with on a daily basis, in between their paens to Elliot Rodgers for giving those *****es what they deserved. I will not tolerate this **** on HLP. Not here.

Again, do you have hard evidence of these corruption allegations that isn't manufactured hearsay? I'd like to see it. Now. Or I'm going to take you apart for wide-eyed naivety at best and, well, I don't need to say it at worst. You wanted something other than apathy? Congrats, you got it. And I'm waiting.

[The E]

I played Depression Quest and was actually quite impressed by it, mainly for it's accuracy in depicting depression. And I have seen no hard evidence that indicates to me that this is anything more than an especially vicious attack from the usual misogynistic cretins in the gaming community, aided by a piece of **** jilted boyfriend willing to say or do anything to get back at her for whatever the hell he thinks she did to him. Seriously, reddit is home to some of the most vile scumbags on the internet this side of a Neo Nazi rally - trust me, they're getting what's coming to them. And Bobboau, you need to calm the **** down and not be so easily manipulated by serial liars.

The scale of the reaction is largely fueled by the censoring. People don't like it when they find out they have been manipulated, so this story hits several multipliers in that regard the censorship and the major conflicts of interest that are apparently allowed to run unchecked. I suppose with the apathy on display in this thread I can see how it could have come to this.

Do you have any ****ing idea of the kind of harassment female gaming journalists get on a daily basis just for existing, much less for talking about women's issues? These guys need no fuel whatsoever to start a crusade against "feminist scum". I have no trouble whatsoever believing they'd spend hours of their day fabricating evidence in the hope of taking one of their already favorite targets down. Would you like me to present hard evidence of how far these pieces of **** are willing to go to attack someone they don't like? I can bury you in it.

Give me some harder than hard evidence that this is anything other than a harassed, slandered and very frightened woman engaging in some ill-advised tactics to defend herself (if she's even the actual source of these takedowns). I can't go anywhere on the ****ing internet now without pieces of **** crying out how they're being oppressed because someone has the gall to talk about the amount of crap women have to deal with on a daily basis, in between their paens to Elliot Rodgers for giving those *****es what they deserved. I will not tolerate this **** on HLP. Not here.

Again, do you have hard evidence of these corruption allegations that isn't manufactured hearsay? I'd like to see it. Now. Or I'm going to take you apart for wide-eyed naivety at best and, well, I don't need to say it at worst. You wanted something other than apathy? Congrats, you got it. And I'm waiting.

Yes. This.

[Grizzly]

Blame deathfun.

Hell no.

This whole situation is being given extra fuel by people who do not take the time to read stuff and make overzealous assumptions and spread around allegations without checking if they are true. For the people who have an active interest in harming Quinn's reputation, this is all they need. As long as even one person with an unclear mind thinks there is merit in these claims, they have succeeded. If you jump into a complex and hot situation like this and just take things at face value without digging deeper (and considering the many posts that adressed your question before you asked it, you didn't need to dig deep), you are part of the problem.

[Bobboau]

In my posting of this thread I honestly was mainly bringing up the fact that a ****storm was going on, throwing up random bits I found, when people came at me with a confrontational tone I admit I backed into more of a position that I should have simply out of defensiveness. from my perspective I have seen evidence against her, it's weak but it's there. please bury me.

however, keep in mind...

... harassment female gaming journalists get on a daily basis just for existing ... they'd spend hours of their day fabricating evidence ... these pieces of **** ... slandered and very frightened woman ... pieces of **** crying out how they're being oppressed ... *****es <irony>

...you seem to be engaging in from my perspective very similar tactics you claim are leveled against her. glorifying your side as a victim and slandering your enemies. the accusations against her are corruption, the accusations leveled against her accusers is being lieing sacks of ****. That does color my impression.

In our culture being a victim does give you power, power in some cases to silence people with opinions you don't like and to deflect criticism, and power to manipulate people into becoming part of a personal army.

[Scotty]

In our culture being a victim does give you power, power in some cases to silence people with opinions you don't like and to deflect criticism, and power to manipulate people into becoming part of a personal army.

This right here tells me that you have no experience being a victim of anything greater than perhaps being on the wrong side of an argument.  Even leaving aside how this is the exact same ****ing thing as what the spurned boyfriend has been doing (if any side can be called a "personal army" right now, it's "his"), it's still complete and utter bull****.  Being a victim in our culture means putting up with a wholly disgusting and inappropriate level of remarks including but not limited to:

"He/she deserved it"
"She/he is lying about it"
"He/she shouldn't have done it in the first place"
"She/he was abusing his/her position anyway"
"He/she could have done more to not do it/stop it"
As well as perhaps my favorite, and the one you just fell into the trap of thinking: "She/he is overreacting"

Being a victim in a case like this is a horrid, ****ty place to be, especially when the internet at large decides to make you its personal plaything for the duration.

[Mr. Vega]

I'm a member of an army now?

In my posting of this thread I honestly was mainly bringing up the fact that a ****storm was going on, throwing up random bits I found, when people came at me with a confrontational tone I admit I backed into more of a position that I should have simply out of defensiveness. from my perspective I have seen evidence against her, it's weak but it's there. please bury me.

however, keep in mind...

... harassment female gaming journalists get on a daily basis just for existing ... they'd spend hours of their day fabricating evidence ... these pieces of **** ... slandered and very frightened woman ... pieces of **** crying out how they're being oppressed ... *****es <irony>

...you seem to be engaging in from my perspective very similar tactics you claim are leveled against her. glorifying your side as a victim and slandering your enemies. the accusations against her are corruption, the accusations leveled against her accusers is being lieing sacks of ****. That does color my impression.

In our culture being a victim does give you power, power in some cases to silence people with opinions you don't like and to deflect criticism, and power to manipulate people into becoming part of a personal army.

https://twitter.com/hyerpes/status/501929960228274178
https://twitter.com/armabeast/status/502264934265536512
https://twitter.com/Bored_Cubed/status/501930068818808832

I'm going to leave this here for the night before I go to bed. Welcome to what actual harassment looks like Bobboau. I'll have a good and proper response tomorrow. In the meantime, I suggest you compile what actual evidence you have. "From my perspective" ain't gonna cut it.

[Bobboau]

I don't really have much, I didn't come in this with much of a horse and I don't have a particularly strong opinion about it now, I find the accusations alarming and serious, but as to if she is guilty of them or not I am more than willing to listen to evidence. note you are going to have to do something other than show me how much of a victim she is and how she has been harassed.

[Mr. Vega]

So she's guilty until proven innocent?

[Scotty]

So she's guilty until proven innocent?

This is essentially what it comes down to, and why being the victim in all this is not a cushy, easily manipulated position.  The other thing that really matters in this whole sordid affair is that even if every single allegation were true, this is still a wholly inappropriate and frankly disgusting response.  Even if every single thing actually happened the way her accuser says it did, she has already paid far more than any reasonable punishment would have demanded.

That's why this is sick and wrong.

[Bobboau]

This right here tells me that you have no experience being a victim of anything greater than perhaps being on the wrong side of an argument.  =

yeah except my entire childhood. you ever been in a school where you have basket balls drop kicked at you every 3rd day, or get pushed down into a sheet of ice and kicked by a group of 20 odd children, or had to change in a bathroom stall because of harassment, or has said bathroom stall ripped apart by a mob of people your age to get to you, had the **** beaten out of you on a regular basis, literally spend every second of every day listening and watching out of the corner of your eyes at all times, literally start hearing whispers talking about you, develop chronic illness once you subconsciously link being sick with escape. yeah I know nothing about being a victim.

[Bobboau]

So she's guilty until proven innocent?

well, you were all high and mighty about all of the hard evidence you had that all of the accusations against her were fake and just an angry mob of degenerate sexists. yeah, she's getting harassed, has nothing to do with if she did the alleged stuff or not, has nothing to do with if the evidence against her was faked. I was assuming you were going to come at me with something like chat logs or chan posts where people were conspiring. sorry if I misunderstood what you were claiming you were going to prove.

[Mr. Vega]

I don't really have much, I didn't come in this with much of a horse

it's BAD. it should STOP. journalists who get caught in this sort of professional misconduct should be FIRED. the fact that there doesn't seem to be any hope of that in general SHOULD make you uneasy to say the least.

the fact that it has a delete icon, implying that the person who took the picture was logged into the account that made the post. granted it could easily be fake, hence the supposedly.
so you do not find the nepotism of this disturbing at all? nor the widespread censorship?

So by "not having much of a horse," you mean you change your mind every 3 seconds, passionately defending each opinion before you switch?

Think about what you're doing, reach a conclusion that you're willing to stand by, and defend it and see if it holds up to outside scrutiny. Otherwise this is pointless, and I shouldn't take anything you say seriously at all.

So she's guilty until proven innocent?

well, you were all high and mighty about all of the hard evidence you had that all of the accusations against her were fake and just an angry mob of degenerate sexists. yeah, she's getting harassed, has nothing to do with if she did the alleged stuff or not. was assuming you were going to come at me with something like chat logs or chan posts where people were conspiring. sorry if I misunderstood what you were claiming you were going to prove.

I find the accusations alarming and serious, but as to if she is guilty of them or not I am more than willing to listen to evidence. note you are going to have to do something other than show me how much of a victim she is and how she has been harassed.

That was a response to that quote. I am going to make my case that there's nothing substantial, but are you saying that the onus is on her to prove her accusers false, not the other way around?

[666maslo666]

The accusations against her are bad and if true it paints a sorry picture of her and gaming journalists, while excusing the behavior of her ex-boyfriend. However we should not take them very seriously if there is not evidence to substantiate them except words. Presumption of innocence, people! This thing has exploded to ****storm of an unwarranted size, and online trolls are to blame for that. Some of the abusive messages she recieved are not OK no matter what happened.

I agree with Bobbau that supposed victimhood and accusations of mysogyny certainly can be used to gain sympathy and deflect genuine criticism. However there are a lot of ****ty people or just trolls out there and any drama involving women on the internet is pretty much guaranteed to have real mysogynistic and other abuse posted, either meant seriously or just coming from trolls.

[Mr. Vega]

This right here tells me that you have no experience being a victim of anything greater than perhaps being on the wrong side of an argument.  =

yeah except my entire childhood. you ever been in a school where you have basket balls drop kicked at you every 3rd day, or get pushed down into a sheet of ice and kicked by a group of 20 odd children, or had to change in a bathroom stall because of harassment, or has said bathroom stall ripped apart by a mob of people your age to get to you, had the **** beaten out of you on a regular basis, literally spend every second of every day listening and watching out of the corner of your eyes at all times, literally start hearing whispers talking about you, develop chronic illness once you subconsciously link being sick with escape. yeah I know nothing about being a victim.

Look, dude, I just want to know if you're going to claim that there isn't a large number of gamers with misogynistic tendencies that harass, cyberstalk, and threaten women. If you want to deny this, if you want to deny my attribution of motive, go ahead. I dare you. Look at those twitter posts I put up for a little taste.

I agree with Bobbau that supposed victimhood and accusations of mysogyny certainly can be used to gain sympathy and deflect genuine criticism. However there are a lot of ****ty people or just trolls out there and any drama involving women on the internet is pretty much guaranteed to have real mysogynistic and other abuse posted, either meant seriously or just coming from trolls.

Judging from what female friends have encountered, the ratio of real to fake misogyny online is at least 100 to 1. But that's anecdotal evidence - why would you take my word for it?