[Mr. Vega]

Well, there's the actual monsters who will seize any opportunity to bully people they don't like, and then then there's all the idiots who think that if there's enough people shouting angrily about something, then it must be true no matter how made up the accusation actually are.

[Sarkoth]

In my opinion the truth bears no relevance in regard to this thing. True or not, this is a witchhunt. There are pitchforkes raised and it makes no difference whether any of this is true or not for this whole thing to be a quite drastic cut into the private life of someone. The world is full of scumbag people. Let's say all of this was true, making an example out of anyone never really helped anything, changed anyone or stopped stuff like this from repeating.

Even if I assumed all of this to be true, I still can't see the merit of people dedicating dozens of hours of their lives to this. There have been voiced concerns about false journalism, corruption, pulling favours and all those really concerning things, but guess what, those things are a part of human society. We don't like them and they usually happen in secret, but never have they stopped happening and never will they. Not even in the most dystopian Orwellian future where literally everything is policed stuff like this happening could ever be stopped.

So instead of raising pitchforks, the only proper thing to do is to sharpen one's own sences so that we don't suffer similar fates in our own personal lives. And just as many people will see this story as a hands-on-guide on how to **** over people most successfully. Manipulation is an art form and there's more than enough willing and interested practicioners on this planet.

This whole balloon on the internet about this is just another stern example why I stopped concerning myself with public media altogether. The way media works right now is either reporting someothing which serves someones purpose or not reporting the very same thing out of the very same reason. Nothing of this is about actual information anymore. It's basically just monkeys throwing with excrements, really. Personally I don't want any part in this and although the read was partially interesting, I feel like I wasted three hours of my life.

[Mr. Vega]

I'd like to think it was useful in one way: it revealed just how serious a certain social problem is within the gaming community. Cat's out of the bag now.

[Lorric]

Wow, I just spent three hours reading pretty much all of this.

I wonder how long it would take to read the Quinn thread on the Escapist forum. Mr. Vega got banned at page 140. It's ballooned up to 208 pages in that short time since then, and I'm not sure, but just by looking at it, I think they have more posts to a page than we do here at Hard Light as well.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy

It boggles my mind too, how this incident has spawned such a thing.

[deathfun]

   

To me, it seems like holding female devs up and saying "hey, look at this person, she made a game, didn't she do well? Lets all give her a big clap" is more demeaning, sexist and condescending than leaving them alone and judging them on the same merits as everyone else.

Not only that but the flood of males rushing to a female dev/reporter/whatevers defense when the face any criticism or harassment online has always struck me as incredibly sexist"

Snippet from Escapist

Yes, because we're all defending women because they're women and not because we might think that their whatever was good and worthy of defense

[Mr. Vega]

Haven't you heard? The anti-Quinn crowd isn't driven by misogyny and only wants to expose corruption, while her defenders are white knighting because they think the ugly-ass **** of a whore will give them sex if they do.

[Bobboau]

Can you please attempt to defend the Jennifer Hepler affair, Bobboau?

had never heard of it, or rather, I remember people complaining about dragon age 2 (I remember it being a bit of a let down personally) and I remember someone saying something to the effect of "I wish games could let you skip the game part" didn't remember they were related until I googled her name. she was the lead writer for DA2 and there was a hate campaign put out against her because people really really didn't like her work. in the maybe five minutes I researched this I saw mention of this which was a similar incident. I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here, the internet is filled with people who have insane levels of rage over the minorest of slights. I posted a thread a few months ago reveling in the CEO of cartoon network getting fired cause I had an absurd hatred for the guy. was the hate campaign against her "bad"? yeah. I would also call it unimpressive. so again, not sure what you are getting at, as this doesn't seem related in any way other than maybe the fact there was an internet lynch mob involved and she works in games and of course because she was a woman which I mention only because it seems to be of keen interest to you. Hepler was not accused of basically bribery, and I do not recall wide spread suppression of it, she was just not liked, a bunch of people made juvenile internet threats against her she quit. seems like you are just trying to throw up some random other controversy to divert from the main discussion.

BTW, can we take this as evidence that indeed there is/was a relationship between Zoe and Nathan?

[Bobboau]

white knighting

you know that term has other meanings right? like someone claiming to be doing something out of virtue when in reality they are just going after their agenda and using supposed virtue as a tool to accomplish it.
though it is used for that meaning as well... but you've brought it up a few times.

and you guys are defending women because they are women, this sort of **** is endemic across the whole game industry and you only seem to care when the target is a woman. it is nothing special, it is not misogyny.

[Mr. Vega]

I had forgotten about the term before it was used repeatedly to describe me and others who defended Quinn on other sites over the past few days. Also, it's all the same meaning!

[Mr. Vega]

and you guys are defending women because they are women, this sort of **** is endemic across the whole game industry and you only seem to care when the target is a woman. it is nothing special, it is not misogyny.

Again, you're doing the same old switcheroo. Random death threats get thrown around all the time, but no evidence you've sighted conflicts with my argument that there are also organized harassment campaigns like this one of a volume and intensity that is quite rare, and that they target prominent women to a disproportionate extent.

You're trying to claim that my argument is that they all target women, something you can disprove in your sleep, rather than try to disprove what I am actually saying.

[Grizzly]

and you guys are defending women because they are women, this sort of **** is endemic across the whole game industry and you only seem to care when the target is a woman. it is nothing special, it is not misogyny.

Well, if you can find me a situation where the harrassment was on a similar scale as this one, with just as a big a lack of proof, with this many slut shaming and similar effects going on, where a topic was created on HLP where people went along with the accusations, I'd be happy to concede that point.

[deathfun]

and you guys are defending women because they are women, this sort of **** is endemic across the whole game industry and you only seem to care when the target is a woman. it is nothing special, it is not misogyny.

I'd say death threats are actually endemic across the internet towards any sort of industry/person/company/writer/whatever
You're also presuming to know what's going on inside our heads.
You're also presuming that we don't care about death threats happening to other devs
You're also forgetting that the topic at hand right now isn't about those other devs, it's about one dev who just so happens to be female getting into a ****storm over false and irrelevant bull**** which became a topic of conversation regarding women devs in general

If you want to change the topic to include death threats to males, then by all means make that topic change. Just don't pull that sort of B.S. in that particular phrasing

Try "So what about all the male devs that get death threats and **** like this happening to them? Why aren't there ever topics that blow up into proportions like this over them? Where are their threads and conversations and defensemen?"

Well, to be fair, I haven't seen you make any topics about those game devs so...

EDIT: Josh seems to have already pointed that out

[Bobboau]

I had forgotten about the term before it was used repeatedly to describe me and others who defended Quinn on other sites over the past few days. Also, it's all the same meaning!

I can believe that someone would say that with that intention, when you say unkind things to people you try to say the thing which will hurt them the most, and it does seem like that one really got to you. so... mission accomplished there.
or I could also see someone saying that to you, trying to imply that the only difference between you and 4chan is 4chan doesn't try to pretend to be the good guy. many people not on your side are being harassed in a similar fashion by people on your side. thanks to google's asinine (recently abandoned) real name policy you probably would have little difficulty in finding my boss's contact info at the woman owned business I work at.and telling her all about how I'm a horrible misogynist who needs to be fired. If you truly are not tempted can you say there is no one fighting the same fight you are who would not find such a temptation irresistible? what about rather than me it was one of those "actual monsters"? would you feel bad about it happening? are you better than 4chan?

Again, you're doing the same old switcheroo. Random death threats get thrown around all the time, but no evidence you've sighted conflicts with my argument that there are also organized harassment campaigns like this one of a volume and intensity that is quite rare, and that they target prominent women to a disproportionate extent.

You're trying to claim that my argument is that they all target women, something you can disprove in your sleep, rather than try to disprove what I am actually saying.

There are organized harassment campaigns. this one is of a volume and intensity that is rare. but the fact that they are so rare means you cannot really make a claim about there being some sort of ulterior motive behind them. it could be that it has nothing to do with them being women and everything to do with them being a SJW. /*shrug*/ I can't make that claim either. though you might argue that it's the same thing (it's not). I'm not sure how you are going to prove that  "major" harassment campaigns happen "disproportionately" to "prominent" women. I mean there are so many subjective qualifiers there would be no way to disprove it. I mean I could bring up things like what happened to Mac Walters and it'd just be a single datapoint. I could bring up every death threat to every game dev in history and you'd just say they weren't 'major' enough.

I happen to be an animation buff. one of my favorite people in the industry is Rebecca Sugar. She got her own show about two years ago and I remember there was a whole bunch of talk about her being the first woman to create a show on Cartoon Network. I was really annoyed by that talk because it overshadowed her actual accomplishments, and her actual skill as a writer, story boarder, and animator.

[deathfun]

I happen to be an animation buff. one of my favorite people in the industry is Rebecca Sugar. She got her own show about two years ago and I remember there was a whole bunch of talk about her being the first woman to create a show on Cartoon Network. I was really annoyed by that talk because it overshadowed her actual accomplishments, and her actual skill as a writer, story boarder, and animator.

You realize that's like saying "I have a black friend therefore I'm not racist" right?

and you'd just say they weren't 'major' enough.

Stop assuming actions that you have no basis for
Unless of course you have a basis for it then by all means lay it on us.

[Mr. Vega]

are you better than 4chan?

Yes.

[zookeeper]

What's the argument here? Obviously a lot of people attack whoever they attack largely because they're women or feminists or part of whichever group they have an axe to grind with, and similarly obviously a lot of people are more interested in defending members of those groups than some other groups.

If there's a disagreement on whether internet lynchmobs against women are more abusive and hateful than those against men or not, then duh, the evidence for that will be right there online for you to link to.

[Bobboau]

I'd say death threats are actually endemic across the internet towards any sort of industry/person/company/writer/whatever
yeah, I would not disagree with this

You're also presuming to know what's going on inside our heads.
You're also presuming that we don't care about death threats happening to other devs
I'm commenting on your actions

You're also forgetting that the topic at hand right now isn't about those other devs, it's about one dev who just so happens to be female getting into a ****storm over false and irrelevant bull**** which became a topic of conversation regarding women devs in general
the point being made was that no one cares about them, even though they experience the same form of harassment as this one particular woman. I mean why are you assuming that all of this is fueled by misogyny when the same thing happens to men all of the time?

If you want to change the topic to include death threats to males, then by all means make that topic change. Just don't pull that sort of B.S. in that particular phrasing

Try "So what about all the male devs that get death threats and **** like this happening to them? Why aren't there ever topics that blow up into proportions like this over them? Where are their threads and conversations and defensemen?"
that is in fact a good question. though I am prety sure I have mentioned my beleif that the reason this one exploded like it did was due to the streisand effect. I know that's the reason I posted it "holy **** it's getting shut down even on 4chan! that's nuts!"

Well, to be fair, I haven't seen you make any topics about those game devs so...
I made this topic because of the severity of the ****storm, that was the story. "whoa guys! look at this mess. look at all of this crazy **** getting flung all over the place"

EDIT: Josh seems to have already pointed that out
this does seem to be the largest ****storm gaming related that I can recall period so I cannot meet Js challange

[Bobboau]

I happen to be an animation buff. one of my favorite people in the industry is Rebecca Sugar. She got her own show about two years ago and I remember there was a whole bunch of talk about her being the first woman to create a show on Cartoon Network. I was really annoyed by that talk because it overshadowed her actual accomplishments, and her actual skill as a writer, story boarder, and animator.

You realize that's like saying "I have a black friend therefore I'm not racist" right?
I am rally trying to wrap my mind around this one and all I can think is you are an asshole

and you'd just say they weren't 'major' enough.

Stop assuming actions that you have no basis for
Unless of course you have a basis for it then by all means lay it on us.
well, I really felt like that was what he was saying in the response that I was quoting. so... I guess that might be a basis for me thinking that

[deathfun]

I mean why are you assuming that all of this is fueled by misogyny when the same thing happens to men all of the time?

*Whistles*
Hey you, you there
Yeah Bobb, looking at you
Quote me on something where I'm saying it's fueled by misogny

I'm commenting on your actions

Yes, my actions that were and always will be "Who the **** gives a ****"
Or did you forget our conversations on the first page? Hmm?

that is in fact a good question. though I am prety sure I have mentioned my beleif that the reason this one exploded like it did was due to the streisand effect. I know that's the reason I posted it "holy **** it's getting shut down even on 4chan! that's nuts!"

That is a fair point. Also that question was a rephrase of your sentence

I made this topic because of the severity of the ****storm, that was the story. "whoa guys! look at this mess. look at all of this crazy **** getting flung all over the place"

To which was initially seen as you getting caught up in it (as seen by your early responses on the topic) and possibly believing it (that was the impression given by your stance)



Funny part though, is this article which has this from Hepler
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

Women represent over 50 percent of the population, tend to be in charge of household finances, and are the majority purchasers of games (when factoring in games bought by women as gifts for husbands, children, friends, etc.). To indulge a community that is actively trying to alienate this powerful market segment (not to mention gay men, casual gamers of all types and anyone new to the hobby), is suicidal.

EDIT: And yes I am an asshole. That's my job. I am an asshole to pretty well everyone in varying degrees and not just on the internet

[Mr. Vega]

I have a feeling I'm not going to enjoy it when I end up in an argument against you, deathfun. Take that in a ......good way.