Author Topic: Well that escalated quickly...  (Read 70721 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
The whole GamerGate topic is intriguing, so I've done a bit of investigating and, as is tradition, I've found something a little odd.

Rumour has it that these threats on Anita Sarkeesian are fake. Source is /v/, and even though they've got some interesting findings up on the Quinnspiracy KnowYourMeme page, I want to do a bit more research before I say one way or another.

Will provide more info as I find it. There may be a wait, since it's my bedtime (hah).
Rumor is also that she needs a good raping. What's your point?
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Post the part where I am 'contemptuous' of anything or anyone other than the tendency to over-dramatize things precisely as you are doing here.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Why is the fact that Anita *said* what happened to her more important to you than that it happened. Can we go 10 minutes without anyone telling her to be quiet?
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
That... is the most ridiculous thing I've read for quite a while. I didn't say she should 'be quiet', I said that the gaming communities habit of over-reacting to situations is often what creates those situations in the first place. I said her method of dealing with it, and the reaction to that method, is an example of our love of Drama. I ALSO said she should contact the authorities, because they are the ones in the position to make that person stop, which is I would have thought is the ultimate goal of all this.

I don't even know how to continue with you, this thread has so emphatically proved my point that I really don't think I need to say anything else.

Edit : When did 'if you're not with us, you're against us' become so popular anyway?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:06:55 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
One thread on this topic ended up locked. The secobnd will go quicker. Everyone stop being so confrontational.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Maybe she can contemplate the distinction you're talking about, flip, when she can sleep in her own bed. Show the slightest bit of empathy at the very least.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Once again, where did I say I didn't have empathy, where did I say that what happened to her wasn't wrong?

You've got this template and you are determined to squeeze me into it, aren't you?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:28:24 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
One of the things that annoys me most about this is that **** like this make it really difficult to criticize her work.  A lot of her stuff is really dishonest, but it doesn't matter because she's the victim of a lot of harassment.  The legitimate critics either go unheard, or they're demonized and lumped in with the morons.

I've seen accusations of dishonesty flung about freely regarding the TvW videos, but I've never seen a sane person come up with sane explanations. It's all "Game <x> was misrepresented!" or "This scene was taken out of context!", which to me sounds more like people desperate to justify their particular tastes than good, factual critique.
I've also not seen a good refutation of the overall point Sarkeesian makes (that being that representation of women in games is deeply problematic due to it falling in a narrow range of stereotypes).

I would like to see both of those things though; After all, any hypothesis is only as strong as the criticism it can withstand.
I don't actually disagree with Sarkeesian's premise, but I actually do think it matters what examples she uses.  The recent Hitman one is a great case, actually. 

Basically, part of a mission in Hitman: Absolution goes through a stripclub.  Naturally, this being Hitman, you have the ability to kill pretty much anyone you want, which includes the strippers.  But, since they're innocents, you're penalized for doing so.  Sarkeesian uses this as an example of sexism, treating it as though that was the whole point of the game, that "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose.  Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters." All the while using footage of the player dragging the bodies around in a great big circle to show just how objectified and disposable these women are. 

Not only is this them being treated like every single other npc in the game, be they male or female, but she says earlier in the video (generally speaking) "...this kind of misogynistic behavior isn't always mandatory; often it's player-directed, but it is always implicitly encouraged." which is crap, given that, again, Hitman penalises you for killing innocents, and in that specific case, they're actually out of your way.  It's like she takes the mere existence of vulnerable female characters as encouragement to harm them.

What is that if not misrepresentation?  It's completely dishonest.  There are plenty of good examples to make her point, some of which she uses herself (the Mass Effect one in particular), so why is this kind of dishonesty even necessary?

The video is here, should you want to watch it.  Part I'm talking about is at 21:46, but the whole thing is worth watching.

There's also the whole part where she doesn't seem to understand what a background character is, but I'm not talking about that right now.

While I'm on the topic, I noticed a trend with her a while ago: she focuses on the way female characters get treated, whether or not male NPCs in a given game also get treated the same way.  Now, she explains that this isn't ok because of a power differential in modern society.  Ok, that's fine.  What is the solution, then?  If a game has female characters, they must be in a position of power or it's sexism?  Women can't be vulnerable ever, and a game can't even show sexist situations or it's reinforcing the patriarchy?

Christ, she uses footage from New Vegas (among others) to illustrate this.  I don't know if you've played it, but that game is probably as far from sexist as you can get in the modern gaming industry.  It depicts sexism (hi Caesar's Legion), but it deals with it quite seriously.  I'm not saying that, as a counterexample, this invalidates her premise.  It doesn't, but it certainly doesn't support it.  I haven't played every game she chooses to talk about, so how do I know she's not doing this elsewhere with other games?  Whether it's conscious or not, it undermines her entire methodology, and I rather dislike her for it.

But if there's one question I wish I could ask her, it's this: Can a game depict sexism without being sexist in itself?  Can it allow the player to engage in activities that could be considered sexist without being sexist itself?  Given the way she deals with her critics, I don't think I'd be likely to get a serious response.

Honestly, I wish I had the patience to go through all her videos and actually write something up.  Like I said before, I don't actually disagree with her central premise, but I do have a problem with the way she demonstrates it, and I don't think she deserves most of the praise (or the hate) she gets. 

I do hope this qualifies as a sane explanation. :)

And like Flipside, I used to rather like Thunderf00t's stuff (and his science-related work is still excellent), but I think he's getting a bit too angry about this issue.  I've been avoiding his feminism-related videos for a while.  His complete and utter lack of tact really doesn't help, given how heated this discussion is in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 11:53:26 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
You accused her of making drama for informing people via Twitter Flipside. Twitter is also used as a way to quickly get word out to colleagues, you know.

*Sigh*i shouldn't have snapped. I am just really really tired of people telling her what she can say and when, AS this stuff is going on. Really, really tired.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
No problem, I know it's an emotion evoking situation, and largely for very good reasons.


I suppose the thing is, I'm a strong advocate of Women's Rights, but I also believe in looking at a situation from as neutral position as possible, there is a reciprocity being generated by people's behavior, a vast cycle of attack/counter-attack on a huge variety of things, that's the nature of the Internet. Yes, what should have happened when that conversation was posted was a reasoned, intelligent debate on gender and perceptions of it and how to prevent this kind of thing. However what DID happen, what everyone knew would happen was a God-Almighty ****-storm. This surprised no-one.

This isn't a comment about gender really, it's a comment about people, male AND female, and the fact that we spend so much energy getting angry about a problem, we have none left to solve it.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Flipside is expressing the opinion that if Ms Sarkeesian wanted this matter dealt with with the minimum amount of fuss, she should have simply left her home and only published this matter after the person had been apprehended. Going public doesn't help calm things down and, if anything, actually makes it harder to investigate the matter as the ****wit behind it will now know that the cops are investigating. He would have been much easier to catch if she hadn't said anything.

I'm sure Flipside would express the same opinion regardless of the sex of the person in question so quit trying to see this in black and white terms.

EDIT : Ninja'd by Flipside himself anyway.

EDIT 2: This is a bit of a tangent, but I think it was one of the best things I've read about feminism in a while.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:40:29 am by karajorma »
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
My position: she has a goddamn right to speak publicly about it, that this isn't just a random death threat but the crest of a very nasty wave that is hitting all of us, and that people need to know how bad this is getting.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:43:07 am by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline deathfun

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
And at what point will we be able to actively do anything about it?
That's the main issue isn't it. What can one do to stop these people?

You can call them out, you can inform people what is right and what is wrong, you could have an entire army defending folks from death threats tangible or benign. It won't stop people from forgetting what it is to be a decent human being

So my question is: What is the plan?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
My position: she has a goddamn right to speak publicly about it, that this isn't just a random death threat but the crest of a very nasty wave that is hitting all of us, and that people need to know how bad this is getting.

And I wouldn't deny her that right.


Doesn't mean it was the most sensible thing to do though. For one thing, this is going to give other trolls the idea that this kind of tactic does succeed in making people scared enough to leave their homes. Other trolls who might take better precautions to prevent themselves getting caught.
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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
The problem is that the Gaming Community is its own great big cyclic cluster-**** that has become its own worst enemy.

For example, this person attacks Sarkeesian, she, rather than informing the authorities that there's someone with obvious mental issues stalking her.

Bolded part is incorrect. Sarkeesian has informed the authorities about this. I think the post was made mainly because of what transpired earlier: People claimed that Zoe Quinn (from dat ****storm a week earlier) was, in fact, not being harassed at all and that she was lying about the whole ordeal to get more attention to herself. This was evidenced by her "Lack of proof" for these things.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
I will also, just for balance say that I stated a very similar opinion in the Zoey Quin thread regarding her ex-boyfriend posting all those details in the first place, that it may feel 'vindicating' but it causes far more problems than it solves.

I suppose an interesting thought experiment is this :

Imagine someone manages to identify the guy (or possibly even girl) who made those comments, found out their address as they did with Ms Sarkeesians' parents, went there and killed that person, all from information in that picture.

Has anyone won? Has anything been achieved? Will the world be a safer, more tolerant place for women? Nothing has changed, and possibly, things would have just got a little bit worse.

We walk the path of Nietzsches' monsters if we are not careful.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
Anyone who follows my Twitter feed will know that I'm fond of counter-mobbing assholes who post anonymous death/rape/torture/whatever threats against women online for expressing an opinion.  It's a strange phenomenon that men get the death threats and a variety of bull****, but with women it becomes uniquely personal.

That said...

I'm not convinced that reacting to these things by moving out of your house and creating a further social media ****storm is necessarily the right course of action.  The fact that someone manages to dig up an address on social media does not make the threats any more credible, and a better course, IMHO, is simply to contact law enforcement, advise other people of the event to act on your behalf, and liberally exercise the block function.  The majority of these accounts are anonymously created for the sole purpose of being abusive on social media; refusal to play the game makes it less likely they'll continue.

Law enforcement has begun to take online threats much more seriously, and in the absence of a credible threat, I think it's much wiser to treat these people as the powerless scum they are.  Generally speaking, people who are going to pose a true threat to your health/safety don't advertise.  These tweets/posts/etc are horrific fantasy played out in text designed to make their authors feel good; the best way to thwart them is to ignore them utterly.  There's a fine line between reasonable precaution and actions that empower the scum far beyond their actual means.

Part of the solution to this is Twitter/Facebook in particular implementing much stricter banning approaches for harassing activity.
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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
My position: she has a goddamn right to speak publicly about it, that this isn't just a random death threat but the crest of a very nasty wave that is hitting all of us, and that people need to know how bad this is getting.

I think letting the people making these threats know how much of an effect they can have is a legitimate downside to publicising them.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
I will also, just for balance say that I stated a very similar opinion in the Zoey Quin thread regarding her ex-boyfriend posting all those details in the first place, that it may feel 'vindicating' but it causes far more problems than it solves.

I suppose an interesting thought experiment is this :

Imagine someone manages to identify the guy (or possibly even girl) who made those comments, found out their address as they did with Ms Sarkeesians' parents, went there and killed that person, all from information in that picture.

Has anyone won? Has anything been achieved? Will the world be a safer, more tolerant place for women? Nothing has changed, and possibly, things would have just got a little bit worse.

We walk the path of Nietzsches' monsters if we are not careful.
Then the fault lies with the killer. The right to publicly shame your attacker is as important a right as any. It does not make her a drama queen, and if it does, then some drama is justified.

And both Anita and Quinn have stated that the authorities have been contacted about this latest series of threats.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

  

Offline Flipside

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Re: Well that escalated quickly...
In that case then, surely, the actions of this lone nutter attacking Ms. Sarkeesian are also the responsibility of the attacker alone and therefore should not be used as an example of misogynism in the Gaming community? In fact, every single person who contacted her did so entirely of their own volition.

You see, it has to work in both directions, or it isn't fair, that's kind of the point of equality, if we aren't applying it equally, then what is it?