[Lorric]

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88246.msg1762133#msg1762133

Black Wolf has been working with me in recent times. Just on the 21st August I checked in with him after not hearing from him for a month. I asked if there were any problems with any of my posts or if I had been reported and he said no. I have heard nothing since of any problems.

In addition he told me he'd always tell me if I had been reported, even if the report was not actionable. I have been told of no reports.

Also, I had an agreement with the HLP staff. Karajorma's action against me strongly violates that agreement.

[Lorric]

I should also clarify I oppose my expulsion from Gen Disc.

If I have been reported, you haven't allowed the agreed process to take effect. A process me and Black Wolf agreed on was a good process. As far as I'm aware I've been reported very few times since March.

And why do I get it in the neck for saying "yes" and -Joshua- doesn't for saying "no". (Of course I don't think he should.)

You haven't allowed the talk with Zacam to take place about that other issue (related to me making reports). You were supposed to be leaving this to Zacam to sort out.

I also wonder how I can possibly have been reported a ridiculous number of times this month, when I have only made one post this month besides the one I got banned for, and somehow I doubt posting in Trashman's LP could have garnered reports.

Before that you're getting into the territory where I asked Black Wolf and he said nothing was amiss. There was plenty of time inbetween there and now for him to tell me there was.

EDIT: I also had a chat with Black Wolf on either the end of the 27th or start of 28th about various things. That would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce concerns into the conversation. He said nothing, we just had a friendly chat.

[Scotty]

I'm not going to go into numbers, because the moderation staff agreed not to go into detail when it comes to reports, but you've been reported a lot since March.  You also hold the record for most reports filed.

Clearly there is something wrong.  You have been given multiple chances to improve yourself and you have consistently failed to do so.  Your most recent thread in Gaming Discussion illustrates this trend, in which you fail to grasp complex concepts whether intentionally or through a lack of ability to understand said complex concepts.

Such obliviousness is not helpful or welcome in General Discussion.  The incident that just got you banned from GD is the last in a long line of chance you have failed to demonstrate the maturity necessary to get you off of probation.

Have a nice day.

[Lorric]

I'll have to talk to BW when he shows up.

[NGTM-1R]

Black Wolf has interceded on your behalf with me at least. (Or attempted to; I admit I never took his statements he was working with you very seriously for reasons that will be obvious in a moment.) However whatever "working with" was done, the only visible result was the fact that I'd get PM'd by Black Wolf not to argue with you because, it was implied, that would undo whatever "work" was being done. No actual change in behavior ever resulted.
 
I think the request was ridiculous, because you are ultimately responsible for your own behavior and if you chose to behave badly that was on you. I did make some attempt to honor it because it was made by a moderator. But that request was made a long time ago, and frankly the idea that you were allowed to keep posting because some moderator made you a personal project rather than giving you the boot you so richly deserve for your continued inability to engage in complex discussion is odious in itself.

[BritishShivans]

itt lorric is a crybaby

[Axem]

Please keep this thread clean from any unnecessary comments. This is not meant to be a "let me tell you what I really think" type of thread.

[Phantom Hoover]

At the same time... can we still comment on the situation? This is a really clear case of a mod giving Lorric special treatment, which isn't a fair way to moderate at all.

[Luis Dias]

Some comments here disappoint me to a point where I wouldn't think it possible.
Others are just predictable.

I have witnessed far worse behavior as described by the regulations than the implied sin of "naive annoying stupidity" that I see here him being accused of.

I would have a wall of text to describe my profound distaste for this witch hunt but I won't be dragged through this. My last comment is bah.

[Scotty]

At the same time... can we still comment on the situation? This is a really clear case of a mod giving Lorric special treatment, which isn't a fair way to moderate at all.

Lorric was given many second chances, and BW volunteered to attempt to rehabilitate him as a productive member of GD, mostly because he seemed mostly harmless, as opposed to violently argumentative (TrashMan, Liberator, etc).

The probationary period is over; he is banned from Gen Disc indefinitely.

[Lorric]

I'm just waiting for Black Wolf to show up. Maybe he can shed some light on where these "many second chances" in the period between March and now are, because I sure can't.

[Scotty]

The fact that you don't see how that's exactly the problem is as much a case against your inclusion in GD than anything I've said.

[Flipside]

As an ex GM, I really don't want to get too involved, but what I will say is this;

My own feeling is that the thread should have been dealt with long before it ever got to the point where someone got banned. Even if it was locked for 24 hours just to give people time to cool down and structure their arguments in a less confrontational manner. I did tend to find that trick worked.

The whole thread was full of personal attacks and accusation of personal attacks, one person had already been banned for it, and tempers were still frayed. I think this could have been avoided.

[karajorma]

The problem with simply locking the thread is that it goes too far in the other direction.

People have repeatedly asked the moderators to lock threads less and allow the community to moderate itself more. 

I don't particularly want to see controversial topics locked the second they get heated.


As for Lorric, the fact that you've phrased this entire debate as a personal issue between me and you pretty much proves that this was the right decision for the moderation staff to take.

The outcome of the last reported thread was that you should be banned and even then no action was taken. If this is a witch hunt it is the single most ineffective one ever since you've been allowed to get away with actions that should have had repercussions for years.

[Lorric]

It's not personal. Either you are lying, or Black Wolf did not follow through on his promise to tell me if I'm getting reported.

I'll drop a couple more facts here.

Which leads to a suggestion. Moderators have an "Issue a warning because of this message" button. Since when reading a reported thread we will probably already be looking at the post that was reported, an idea might be to simply click on that and send a message saying "This post was reported for being insulting, etc. The decision of the moderation team is that while the post is impolite no action will be taken as a result of this report." i.e a no consequences warning. If you get one of those messages, you know that whatever you did wasn't anything the moderators considered too bad, but that someone, somewhere thinks you crossed a line. So you might want to avoid doing things in quite the same way next time. If you start seeing these appearing very often, you know you're acting like Lorric, annoying people but never doing anything bad enough to actually trigger a response.

Cause the biggest problem with the posts that we saw report from Lorric was that very few of them were actionable. So they were simply closed. Doing this gives us a good way to get feedback to the person causing the trouble without actually punishing them in any way.

The number of these I have received since March: 0

The number of official warnings I have received since March: 1

[karajorma]

Well I trusted the members of the moderation staff who said they were dealing with issues to do with you to tell you if you were being reported or if your own reports were unnecessary and being viewed at attempts to cause trouble. If that didn't happen, then I'm more than willing to sit down with the other moderators and look at this ban in detail.

If they say they did warn you, there will be repercussions though.

[Lorric]

Huh? You say that as if someone else applied the ban.

Warnings are sent through the PM system. Get a sysadmin to check that out if you need to.

[karajorma]

I may have applied the ban, I wasn't the only one to agree to it. You seem to be under the impression that this is the action of a single admin. It really isn't. Last time we voted no one expressed an opinion that you shouldn't be banned.

As for warnings, I'm not talking about official warnings via the PM system. If Black Wolf or Zacam or any other moderator has been making you aware of the issues then you should have been aware of the issues the moderators had with your posts, official warning or not.

I should further point out that Black Wolf talking to you was the alternative to banning you from Gen Disc earlier. So you were already on borrowed time, as it were.

[Lorric]

As far as I'm aware, Zacam decided to take over with talking to me about this issue with the reports I made, But he has not yet had that talk with me.

There has been very little talk of reported posts between me and Black Wolf. Zacam talked with me some days ago about a single reported post in the feminist thread, and that talk went smoothly.

[karajorma]

I'll wait to hear it from Black Wolf and Zacam.