[Sandwich]

Also, my friends and I have a thing to this day where if anybody says they hate anything, one of us will simply say, "I hate sand." And if there's enough of an opening, "It's hot, and course, and it gets everywhere." And if the opportunity is there, and the person in question is close enough and resilient enough emotionally, gently stroke his/her upper arm and say, "not like here. Here everything is soft."
We don't frequently do that last bit.

I can think of a few friends I have who would gladly join me plagiarizing that.

[Luis Dias]

Someone get me the pikes... yeah those ones will do.

Get your stake out then, because I don't think Episode 3 (well, aside from it's terrible title) was really all that bad compared to the other Star Wars movies.  1 and 2 were abysmal... let's get that out of the way.  But 4 and 5 retain a lot of their credibility from the goodwill they garnered on release, not necessarily how they stand up today.  The dialog... oh god, the dialog... Honestly, TESB, widely hailed as the best of the Star wars movies (to date) has absolutely ATROCIOUS dialog writing.  So bad that it is visibly painful to some of the actors speaking those lines.  Lucas had a neat idea with the universe, but his character writing is plainly awful.  TESB stands on its plot - generally - and the performances of some of its strongest actors.  Even then, it is not a great movie by the sum of its elements, but rather in spite of them.  Star Wars' success had a great deal more to do with spectacle than anything else.

There's a lot of oddity about these comments, like they are from another galaxy or some such (badum....). First off, Lucas is indeed a terrible dialog writer, as we can attest in the prequels pretty good, but fortunately for us, all of his dialogues for 4, 5 and 6 were rewritten by actual competent people who went on to write really slick and great dialogues. ESB has by far the most quoted lines of dialogue in any sci fi flick and that's not because da lazors were cool. No, it's because the dialogues are so ****ing good. So good in fact that your commentary was almost like a Lacanian event by itself. The problem is perhaps that you are trying to contextualize SW within some absolute line of "Good-Bad" dialogue, from Shakespeare to Lucas for instance, but that's the wrong approach. SW dialogues are in line with stuff like Indiana Jones or Guardians of the Galaxy.

And to say ESB has ATROCIOUS dialog writing. Omg. Should I really quote here the non ending list of amazing lines said in that movie alone? The 't was the last time you failed me Admiral scene, the Nerf herder scene, all the Yoda lines that almost made me like the character? The Apologies accepted captain Needa? All the dialogue was so slick and efficient. There are issues with the movie (sometimes, it feels like a Buck Rogers movie), but overall? Come on. Even the first one has that one of the great all time one liners Your lack of faith disturbs me...

No, this is just another example of your incredible bad taste in these movies! Sorry!

While I'm at it, allow me to commit another sci-fi heresy, because yes, TWOK, widely hailed as the best Star Trek movie, is only the best by virtue of the fact that the others are generally so bad.  It is a vastly overrated film among its legions of sci-fi fans, by way of nostalgia, attachment to the characters, and the fact that it is the ONLY example of the Star Trek universe having a irreversible character development (*gasp* characters that grow? NEVAR!) result for one of its primary characters (which they then reversed for Search for Spock anyway; and no, Data in Nemesis doesn't count either because they did the same ****ing thing with B4).

I won't drag this into another TWOK conversation, but the irony is clear though when you present the character arc in TWOK as being Spock's, when it's Kirk's. Spock's sacrifice serves Kirk's character arc, not the other way around. Just another piece of evidence that you really need to work a lot more on your sensitivities before you start badmouthing works of art! Let's also not forget that the most popular ST in those days was the Wales one, and it was so precisely because of the more Indiana Jones like lighthearted tone and dialogue writing. Comedy is so underrated in these conversations is not funny. You should all read this: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/12/film-crit-hulk-smash-guardians-of-the-galaxy-and-the-art-of-constructing-jo/

[Phantom Hoover]

Calling a character dying 'character development' is frankly an abuse of the term.

[Cyker]

Would you say that was... arrested development?

[MP-Ryan]

@Luis

I'll see your pike and raise you a longbow. #MedievalPokerReference

Bah, TESB's dialog is only good in comparison to other Star Wars films.  I submit to you:  every interaction between Leia and Solo in the entire film.  They are only marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin in the second film, and even then by the slimmest of hairs.  And then there's Yoda.  Yoda's speech pattern is fine - it's actually one of the few well-done things about the character.  Other than that, for a millenia-old Jedi master Yoda's behaviour is remarkably similar to a 3-year old toddler.  I can make this connection because I have one.  Cute and endearing, yes - well-written, **** no.

The difference between Star Wars and Indiana Jones is that Indiana Jones' campyness is humorous and endearing, using irony and the trials of the hero as a point of quasi-humour throughout.  SW... not so much.  I also submit that TESB did not receive good ratings when it was released - on its own, its a mediocre film at best.  It's only received it's high status rating because of the other films (notably 4 and 6, at first) in the series.  It's greatness is a matter of relativity to the other films.  On its own, it's very meh.

Two things about character development, Star Trek, and TWOK:
1.  Kirk undergoes zero character development from The Motion Picture to Generations.  None.  Zilch.  Nada.  This is true of most characters in the Star Trek universe, with Data being a possible exception in The Next Generation series.  That is why I refer to Spock's death as his character development, because its actual impact on Kirk is ****-all.  Oh hooray, he's broken up about it for 10 minutes of screen time in TWOK (if that) and 15-20 of Search for Spock (if that), but then he's right back to his old self.
2.  Calling a character dying as character development is perfectly acceptable in a universe where there are no long-term consequences between characters from one episode to the next.  It's about the only character development we get.  This is not to say I didn't love The Next Generation (in particular), but one of the reasons the reboots of Galactica and Dr. Who have been so refreshing, despite their flaws, is the fact that the characters actually develop.  There are consequences.

I love science fiction TV and film, but I don't for a second pretend that the most popular variants of it are stand-out works of genius on the merits of their individual parts - which is why I don't get upset about notions like purity.  Frankly, Abrams did a respectable job with the ST reboots, and if his work is comparable on the SW film then it will still be better than episodes 1-3 put together, and probably at least one of the original trilogy, though I have no doubt that nostalgia will prevent most fans from acknowledging that.

*aims bow*

By the way, Return of the Jedi has the best line of dialogue in the entire Star Wars universe.

*twang*

[Scotty]

I'm going to chime in with a disagreement there, Ryan.  His appearance (the only part in which he acts like the 3-year old you described him as) demonstrates to Luke that power and strength is not a matter of looking or sounding impressive.  He is presented as the total foil to Darth Vader.  Where Vader is physically powerful and tall, Yoda is frail and small.  Where Vader's voice is imposing and intimidating in and of itself, Yoda speaks softly and with curious patterns.  Where Vader answers all questions and opposition with force, Yoda doesn't force Luke to do a single thing.  That's not poor writing.

Empire Strikes Back is also notable for having the best dialogue where it matters most.  Consider, briefly, the following quotes.  Then consider the circumstances under which they are spoken.

"No!  Try not!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."  <- Immediately before the event that truly shows us the power of the Force.  This serves as the preface for Luke's realization that Yoda is, in fact, a true Jedi Master.  It's an important turning point in his attitude toward training.

"I don't believe it."  "That is why you fail." <- Immediately following the same event.  This cements Luke's respect for Yoda, and leads directly to both Luke's confrontation with Vader and his plea for help to Leia.

"I love you."  "I know." <- My personal favorite line in the movie, because it's bar none the best single moment for Han's characterization.  Cocksure, a little arrogant, but ultimately well-intentioned.  The fact that it's ad libbed is notable, but I'm hardly going to hold that against the movie's dialogue.

"No, I am your father!"  <- The climax of the movie, in one sentence.  Dark, foreboding, powerful.  My favorite is listed above, but this is probably the best line of the entire series in terms of gravitas per word spoken and the effects thereof.

Those are all off the top of my head, because they're some of the most quoted movie lines ever, and with some digging I could probably find a half dozen more.  The difference between Han and Leia versus Anakin and Padme is that the former group is made up of two good characters, and the latter is made up of a decent character and a block of wood.  Kidding aside, the former is the established anti-hero and the impassioned princess-who-has-no-business-being-anywhere-near-him slowly realizing their feelings for each other.  The latter is a whiny, arrogant "hero" that we know will turn super evil eventually with an eight-year long crush on the first pretty girl he ever saw and the politician who didn't know better.  The difference is vast, and covers more than just the dialogue.

[Flipside]

You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.

[MP-Ryan]

You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.

That's rather my point - that nerd rage over the purity and greatness of the original films is pointless.

Scotty, for every moment of greatness it has, TESB has two that just really aren't.  Doesn't make it a bad film.  It remains the best of the SW universe.  I'm simply saying that if you break it down, the entire franchise is not some masterpiece that deserves some level of reverence or that Abrams could truly screw up (unlike, say, a sequel to something like 2001: A Space Odyssey, to pick a film in the same-ish genre).  I still maintain Yoda was unnecessarily child-like as a proto-Ewok.  I understand the purpose, I maintain the executioncould have been better.

In general, Star Wars is an interesting and nostalgia-friendly franchise made up of mediocre to decent films, and it's going to be very difficult for Abrams to make a bad successor to the original series, never mind the new films (which were bad on a level only an original creator could manage).

[Flipside]

I suppose the difficult bit is differentiating between where 1-3 were 'not like Star Wars' and where they were 'just bad movies'.

To be honest, if you do it right, you can change all kind of canon in these movies, and the majority of people won't really care as long as you get the basic recipe of Ninja Space-Wizards, and really, who can blame them?

Episodes 4-6 knew why people watched the films and stuck to the formula that worked, the new movies weren't bad stories, as such, they were just really badly told.

For me, it wasn't that 4-6 were 'great' movie masterpieces, it's not that 1-3 were really bad Star Wars movies, it's that 1-3 were just bad movies, full stop. 4-6 weren't great movies, but they didn't stand out as bad ones either, I suppose that's the difference.

[Scotty]

The originals also had fantastic effects for their day that still hold up.  The new ones are all CGI and you can really tell.

[Mongoose]

I remember thinking that the big clone battle at the end of 2 looked more like something out of a video game even back when it was new.  It probably looks godawful now.

[MP-Ryan]

Part of the reason the originals are so fondly remembered is that, yes, in their day they had some incredible effects and tech in their making which does largely hold up over time, as Scotty said. They were groundbreaking in that sense, as a space epic with that kind of immersive visuals was a brand new concept.

Fastforward to Ep 1 when Lucas tried to carry the movie with visuals that were pretty but also to which audiences were accustomed, and no amount of effects were going to make up for his ****ty writing and design decisions.

[Flipside]

Well, in that respect, take a look at the original series of BSG, and you'll find yourself wondering how the show ever got so famous as to lead to a gritty reboot in the first place.

I was 5 when Star Wars came out, it was a different world, and people were less demanding when it came to content because the Film industry wasn't so deeply ingrained into the way of life, things like Videos and DVD's were unheard of, so the only way to see these films was to either go to the Cinema or wait several years for it to appear on TV.

That's the thing, I think, Films are far more of a consumable than they were when the original Star Wars came out, films are very taken for granted nowadays and that has led to a level of 'entitlement', for want of a better word, because people understand the media and what it can provide to a far greater degree.

Edit : It's like my fondness for Buck Rodgers or Airwolf, things that I pray they will not try to reboot, they were charming, but that doesn't mean good when held up to modern day requirements for something to watch.

[Luis Dias]

@Luis

I'll see your pike and raise you a longbow. #MedievalPokerReference

Bah, TESB's dialog is only good in comparison to other Star Wars films.  I submit to you:  every interaction between Leia and Solo in the entire film.  They are only marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin in the second film, and even then by the slimmest of hairs.

...

I'm lost at words. For real. Wowzers. Ouch. Come on, really? I won't even try with you any longer, but the wider audience, any one of you are in line with this incredible bad taste?

I mean really? Yes, Han starts it all with the "don't get too mushy on me princess", and it sounds a tad off, but Leia handles it so well. Han keeps trying when they are with Luke, only to be scoffed at ("Nerf Herder"), but again gets it wrong. Jesus. And the scene where Han gets to almost kiss Leia in the Falcon only to be interrupted by Threepio, that's "marginally better than the whiny schtick between Padme and Anakin"? What really strong stuff have you been smoking man? Again, it's not "Shakespeare" material. Not even Casablanca material (from which it tries to copy from), but to compare it with the "Sand gets everywhere" material is baffling to me. No, that won't do. NOOOOO

And then there's Yoda.  Yoda's speech pattern is fine - it's actually one of the few well-done things about the character.  Other than that, for a millenia-old Jedi master Yoda's behaviour is remarkably similar to a 3-year old toddler.  I can make this connection because I have one.  Cute and endearing, yes - well-written, **** no.

Tell me why it's badly written (in ESB, not anywhere else). Yes, it has a childlike behavior, but that is a trope, not a fluke. The trope of old wise men behaving like children, because somehow they reacquired their innocence, through wisdom. That is, as you said, endearing, and that's the point. The point was that Luke was being too serious, too "adult". He should learn to be an "amazed child" again - another trope, the "Christmas Carols are only for children" movies abuse this **** to smithereens. This is not bad writing, especially when countered with the scary admonition that is also part of the character "You will be".

The difference between Star Wars and Indiana Jones is that Indiana Jones' campyness is humorous and endearing, using irony and the trials of the hero as a point of quasi-humour throughout.  SW... not so much.  I also submit that TESB did not receive good ratings when it was released - on its own, its a mediocre film at best.  It's only received it's high status rating because of the other films (notably 4 and 6, at first) in the series.  It's greatness is a matter of relativity to the other films.  On its own, it's very meh.

So the **** what, critics are assholes, 2001 had terrible ratings when it came out too. It might not be the zenith of what mankind can achieve, on that ground we agree, but it's still one of the best sci fi flicks ever made.

Two things about character development, Star Trek, and TWOK:
1.  Kirk undergoes zero character development from The Motion Picture to Generations.

What the **** does this have to do with Generations, a terrible movie anyway? If you don't see a character arc from the beggining of TWOK to the end of the Wales movie, then you get better glasses. Yes, most characters in Star Trek do not have any arcs, because that wasn't the way ST was designed. They were designed to be more or less static against whom "amazing things" would happen in space, time, etc. ST suffered from this because it came from sitcom material, designed per episode basis. We shouldn't blame ST for not being Babylon 5 or nuBSG. Those other shows rested on the shoulders of Star Trek, not the other way around.

Frankly, Abrams did a respectable job with the ST reboots, and if his work is comparable on the SW film then it will still be better than episodes 1-3 put together, and probably at least one of the original trilogy, though I have no doubt that nostalgia will prevent most fans from acknowledging that.

ST Into Darkness is a mess of a movie, but somewhat enjoyable. My adrenaline likes it, my brain hates it. And my brain wins me over everytime.

By the way, Return of the Jedi has the best line of dialogue in the entire Star Wars universe.

I know what you are referring to!

[Grizzly]

Well, in that respect, take a look at the original series of BSG, and you'll find yourself wondering how the show ever got so famous as to lead to a gritty reboot in the first place.

BSG got a reboot because the guy who rebooted it worked on Star Trek Voyager before, and thought it did the whole "Stranded in unknown space" thing really badly, and so he took another popular franchise and ensured it did that well.

IIRC, off course.

[Hobbie]

The best line in the series is "But I wanted to go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!"

What's Tosche Station? What are power converters?

It encapsulated the fantastic world of Star Wars without bringing attention to how different it is, as opposed to Star Trek, which rams anything we don't understand into your brain until you have a headache.

[MP-Ryan]

I am not going to waste time and disk space further with line by line argumentation about bloody Star Wars and Star Trek.  This way lies nerd rage arguments which.... Just no.

Suffice to say that while each series is groundbreaking and special in their own way, their individual parts generally are not.  Thus, as he did a reasonable job on the Star Trek reboots - which I've quite enjoyed - I don't think Abrams can really screw anything up in SW 7 which the series' own creator hasn't done already.  If he manages to make a film at least comparable to epiaode 3 it will fit nicely around the average of the series.

[Lorric]

You know, sometimes you just have to sit back, grab the popcorn and enjoy a movie.

This.

There is no bad taste. There is no good taste. There is only your taste. It is all subjective.

[Sololop]

I actually, did not really like episode 6, 1, or two. I liked 4, 5 and 3. Yeah, I liked 3. Not as good as 4 and 5 but I enjoyed it. Probably because I was a young kid when it came out. It was fun, and all I like about movies are if they're fun. For some reason I don't like Ewoks so they kinda ruined 6 for me

[SypheDMar]

Abrams Star Treks were fantastic for the most part. I have high hopes for his Star Wars.