Author Topic: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)  (Read 4067 times)

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Offline BritishShivans

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The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Too bad that part is stupid and utterly ruined the Bentusi. Instead of giving them a definitive *reason* for fleeing and being afraid of the Beast, enough that they refuse to help anyone else in any way, they're just "oh no the beast will eated us." It's shameful.

Just like nearly the rest of the game lol

But yeah, the cruise missile mission was actually pretty great. Very anxiety-inducing, especially since the missiles start trying to lure your ships into scenarios where they can infect them and the transports.

 

Offline Hobbie

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Too bad that part is stupid and utterly ruined the Bentusi. Instead of giving them a definitive *reason* for fleeing and being afraid of the Beast, enough that they refuse to help anyone else in any way, they're just "oh no the beast will eated us." It's shameful.

They kind of do have a reason. When Bentusi get eaten, they get to stay alive and fully conscious while their ship assimilated, as opposed to the "Bound" (IE: not wired into the ships) who get turned to mush. Imagine a Borg drone fully conscious of what it was doing but unable to exert any control.

For them it's a fate worse than death, and I can understand them wanting to get the heck out of dodge.
In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)



  

Offline BritishShivans

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Except that is the thing: They can still blow themselves up if they get infected. There's nothing that stops them from just using the Naar Directive - and even more so, since it's been implied it's a single Bentusi for each ship! That means that they have even less things to stop them from just killing the Beast with fire! It's badly thought-out and really just one of the more idiotic cop-outs that Cataclysm makes.

 

Offline Hobbie

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Welp, I should probably do some more reading then!
In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
The naar directive relies on someone else venting the plasma . Bentusi don't want to die, they don't want to be slaves either.

 

Offline BritishShivans

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
The naar directive relies on someone else venting the plasma . Bentusi don't want to die, they don't want to be slaves either.
...Bentusi ships are supposedly entirely automated due to being integrated with their pilot. They would be the ones venting the plasma.

(By which - venting the plasma with extreme prejudice into any Beast infection detected the moment it touches the hull.) And they can still blow themselves up. You might have a different view of them, but HW1 established that the Bentusi are very altruistic - regardless of how Cataclysm ****s on them.

 The idea that they'd focus on Karan specifically and just run away because oh no stupid skin disease nanobots is... quite a heel-face turn. One that doesn't really make sense character-wise. Regardless of the "they will be trapped forever" shtick.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
...Bentusi ships are supposedly entirely automated due to being integrated with their pilot. They would be the ones venting the plasma.

That's not how the integration process works in Homeworld. There is no automation; the pilot is assuming control of literally all ship functions, with their autonomic nervous system being repurposed to handle minor, ongoing ones and their conscious mind handling others.

Blowing yourself up is easy and quick for escaping a fate worse than death. Identifying, isolating, and rerouting drive plasma through infected compartments takes time you do not have when there's only one of you. The Naar Directive is more easily implemented by multiple crew working in tandem than by a single mind of the Unbound.

For that matter, you're overlooking two other serious problems. The Bentusi do not use reaction drives in any of the Homeworld games, so venting their drives into infected compartments would be...difficult. Second, even if they have a ready source of weapons-grade plasma, somewhere, the way the Somtaaw ships use it during Naar Directive protocols is downright weird and not something that you would normally think to design the ship to do. Somtaaw ships are explicitly unusual in design, with most of them having been repurposed from mining craft; their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing.
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Offline BritishShivans

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Except with the Bentusi, it's always been implied that it's one Bentusi per ship? And what does that say? If it takes so long for drive plasma, or hell, just plasma, to be vented, then why do the Bentusi even bother integrating themselves if it offers no advantages of a large crew or replaces a ship crew?

More so, the "their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing." is a load of bull****, considering that a lot of ships can't be infected by the Beast. Perhaps it's meant that they can be infected, but that's nothing that happens to imply that they can't just use the Naar Directive anyway, either.

Honestly, what's really irritating me here is that the Bentusi are supposed to be *beyond* the Hiigarans. Catacylsm just goes "hurr skin disease nanites woo" and turns them into a bunch of cowardly old wankers who are so self-serving it's cartoonishly evil. Moreso, the Bentusi Tradeship, which is implied to have wiped out an entire imperial fleet, is taken down by a pissant strikecraft swarm and a red snot-covered heavy cruiser (no, i will not stop mocking the beast for it's stupid "spaceship skin disease shtick"). To add to this, when you fight them, their weapons are such a far cry from HW1 that Somtaaw's ****ty converted fleet can survive for ****ing ages.

(the Taiidan imperialists are also cartoonishly evil, but let's not get started on that  :nervous:)

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
There is also the possibility, besides the eternity enslaved in living hell bit, that they were concerned about the repercussions of having their ships and technology assimilated into the Beast.  Its one thing if the Beast has access to a bunch of lower race technology but getting its hands on top tier equipment quite likely would have made them impossible to stop.
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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Claiming that the Naar protocol must apply to the Bentusi otherwise it's a plot hole is the worst kind of nitpicking, really.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I think it's an interesting reversal of perspectives here. I mean, it's not like britishshivans isn't saying what the Somtaw commander tells the Bentusi in the middle of their clash.

I think he's correct, that the Bentusi are behaving in an extremely cowardish way. Having said that, I don't think it's a plot mistake. At worst, just a bit stretching it, but the way the writers used the powerful Bentusi as the providers of the consciousness that the Beast is so ****ing terribly scary that even the Bentusi are ****tin their pants off is quite efficient and it delivers properly to whoever is playing the game that nasty feeling of "Wow if even these guys are fleeing, I'm in the ****ter".

Because let's face it. The Bentusi would have to appear in that game and they would have to engage the Beast at some point as being relevant to their own existence within the plot. If they appeared willing to fight and "generously" sacrificial and so on, the overal tone of the game wouldn't be as dire and desperate. It would fail to convey the terror that the writers wanted to convey. Instead, by having them be the "voice" of fear, it does two things: one, it paints the Beast as a really existential threat to the entire Galaxy, two, it conveys the courage and heroic nature of the protagonist clan.

I think it works. Is it perfect? No. It also stroke me a bit as not entirely believable. But it's well written and delivered. So it never took me out of the story.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Worth noting that in HW1, "unbound" meant spacefaring, not integrated into the ship.  That part is 100% a Cataclysm invention.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that the idea that the Bentusi are integrated into their ships is also a Cataclysm invention.

But Cataclysm was easily the least Homeworldy of the three HW games.  It's a decent game as a standalone, but it doesn't have the feel HW1 or even HW2 did (for all its flaws).

Also, the Naar directive is something that applies to Somtaaw ships only for some reason.  Captured Taiidan ships and allied Kushan ships don't have it because the Somtaaw are the specialest Kiith with all the fancy, never-before-seen gadgets that a bunch of miners would obviously have access to.  Clearly the Bentusi can't do it because they aren't as special as the Somtaaw.

*Aesaar is really not fond of Cataclysm.  Except for the manual.  So pleased it isn't getting an HD version.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 01:00:42 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
The plot is doing the works to tell you that only Somtaaw has the necessary drive to research and develop the knowledge and technology to defeat the Beast. All other parties "wake up" to the threat too little too late, and have no idea on how to deal with it because it's a sort of a black swan to them. It's not a bad plot, it was Somtaaw that found and caused the Beast to escape into the Galaxy. They first thought of it as a bad situation that they were personally responsible for, and so they were very dedicated to solve it. Then, slowly realised that this was actually a galactic existential threat, but at that point they did have some advantage on all others regarding R&D, etc.

The plot does assume that everyone else is a bit dumber, etc., than they should be, but hey. Regarding the "Homeworldly" feel, I understand but disagree. Homeworld without Cataclysm is a bit different thing for me.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I find homeworld 2 Bentusi less Bentusi than cataclysm Bentusi.


 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Luis Dias: Yeah, that's the explanation the game provides.  I still don't buy it.  The Somtaaw had special stuff even when the campaign started, and some of the stuff, like the Naar directive, isn't excusable by that explanation.

Dekker: HW2 Bentusi are a lot closer to HW1 Bentusi than Cata Bentusi are.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:41:16 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Give an alien race a script and suddenly everyone's judging them....

Seriously though, I did enjoy playing Cataclysm, it had certain UI advantages over Homeworld (the better tactical map controls were a godsend) that made it more satisfying to play AI-skirmishes on.

As for the story, well, it moved the game along, I felt compelled to stop this monster I had released, and if there were a few plot devices, as long as the missions themselves were fun to play, that was ok. I quite liked the linking technology to be honest, it gave a quick way to deploy corvettes.

I don't think it bothers me at all that both Cataclysm and HW2 exist, I loved HW2, even if it was a little too capship oriented for my tastes, and Cataclysms story was involving, but a bit cliched, but when you look at them as games, rather than as just stories, there's not much to really complain about.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I don't think it bothers me at all that both Cataclysm and HW2 exist, I loved HW2, even if it was a little too capship oriented for my tastes, and Cataclysms story was involving, but a bit cliched, but when you look at them as games, rather than as just stories, there's not much to really complain about.

Alas, they followed a game that you definitely could NOT say that about.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
The odd thing about Homeworld was that its clunkiest part was the game mechanic, the graphics were amazing at the time, the music, the story and the atmosphere were all incredible, and then came the game-balance...

I know the Homeworld technique of punishing the player for doing well has always been a controversial one, but it's actually been wound back from the original. Also, harvesting, whilst I don't like HW2's habit of whisking you away at the end of a battle and auto-harvesting resources, but Homeworld lacked the time acceleration of the other two games as well, so resource hunting at the end of a level became a real chore. I've already mentioned the inability to select and move multiple units on the map screen.

So the weird thing is that, whilst I absolutely adore Homeworld as a game, I agree with you.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 03:16:25 am by Flipside »

 
Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
OTOH the clunkiness is more than compensated for by the accidental brilliance of salvaging.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.