[headdie]

Ok so been chewing over this for a few days.  I am working on a little thought experiment as a game concept on what, A) Scientific and Technological adaptations would be needed to survive on Mars, B) What would be needed to thrive on Mars, C) lastly what developments would be easier on Mars than here?

[The E]

For B) A complete understanding of what it takes to build a completely self-sufficient and stable environment that supports human life, which has heavy implications for A. In addition, there's a need to develop tech to get a sufficient number of canned monkeys to Mars, together with all infrastructure necessary to do useful things once there.

The only development that is easier on Mars than it would be on Earth is the construction of an orbital beanstalk. Pretty much everything else, with the small exception of asphyxiating, is infinitely easier on Earth or in LEO.

[rance]

First, lets assume that money is not a problem, there is sufficient reason to colonize mars, that space travel has advanced to the point where we can send ships to mars with relative ease and Mar's water deposits are near limitless.

The way I see it, to live on another planet there has to be technology that can do one of these 3 things, terraform the planet, create a dome to live under or create an large network of underground tunnels. If we're sticking to reality, terraforming is practically impossible and the dome idea imo has too many potential flaws But, a series of underground tunnels that connect rooms and halls carved out in stone that could be sealed off individually if something goes wrong, with a secondary set of tunnels networked to transport goods is not an impossible idea, London basically created a small underground city during the 20th century over the course of WW2 and the cold war, send a few automated mining robots to mars and after a few months you'd have yourself a human friendly habitat.

Potentially in the future with GM crops and lab grown meat, we will be able to have food produced locally on other planets, but this food can't just grow from nothing, it would require water and energy. Assuming mars does have accessible water deposits capable of sustaining a population, you have both water and hydrogen as fuel for energy, which could also be sublimated with solar power.

---Beyond this line let's say we have magic sci-fi technology---

For me the real issue seems to be breathable air, it may be possible to create some using water and Mar's own atmosphere, but it would require a lot of work to do so. You could say that people who live on mars have been genetically of technologically altered to make their lungs more capable of processing mass produced air.

Since this is for a game I'll throw in what I think is a neat idea, dense bodies (insert yo mama joke here). Mar's gravity is about 1/3 of earth's, to counteract this you either duct tape some rocks to yourself, or alter the body to be more dense to make up for the weakened gravity. That would make it so Martians wouldn't be able to live on earth since the increase gravity would crush them. Then again we have magic sci-fi technology so you could create a gravity bubble or something using a device that amplifies the effect of the higgs field (that gives things mass).

Finally, as for developments easier on mars than earth, construction and travel may be easier due to a lower gravity, but other than that, there isn't much.

[headdie]

Interesting.

Perhaps this will help, I am imagining things in a near future type setting so certainly to begin with minimal voodoo science, though as is the nature of Sci-Fi such technologies will become increasingly needed
In the grand scheme of things I imagine a 3 stage development. 

Firstly is to create a survivable habitat for the initial population which will act as the nucleus which will pave the way for additional population from Earth so building a technical, scientific and production base that can support the initial expansion, so perhaps the underground structures as mentioned before would be best with some kind of mobile facilities for exploration and resource gathering

The Second phase is building the infrastructure to support an increasing population migrating from Earth so would be the thriving phase either by large scale underground communities, Domed surface cities, ongoing terminating effort, and/or a genetic solution

The Third phase being that once the population is growing in a sustainable manner then resources and efforts can be devoted to adding to humanity as a whole, while this will happen regardless during the earlier phases during this phase research into less critical fields can be more actively perused, leading into some of the end game scenarios.

Obviously the more plausible the technologies the better, hence this thread.

[BirdofPrey]

At work so can't go into detail,  but this is an interest of mine so I'll post later.

[rance]

Maybe do it Underground, then domes, then terraform, one for each stage, and the technology gets more magic as it goes along? I like the whole concept but stage 3 is missing the key component of adding to humanity, what can we do on mars that we can't on earth? All I can really think of is construction, living space and maybe mining. Potentially Mars could have a resource we don't have / have run out of on earth but that seems a little cliche, however cliche isn't always a bad thing if the gameplay is good enough. With the Dome idea, I think putting them in craters would 1) Be logical and 2) Look awesome.

http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cowboy-bebop.jpg

Btw I think Mars has tectonic plates, which could be another way of getting energy on Mars

EDIT: Just a thought, if you're going for semi-believable technologies, how about applying the principles of particle acceleration to space ships? The LHC can make particles go as fast as 0.999999991 c (3m/s slower than light) using magnets. I mean sure the pure Gs would cause peoples faces to melt off but that's just details. Maybe to avoid face meltage, just apply it to cargo transports which could be automated. With current technology it takes about 7 months to reach Mars so you could either incorporate the time lag into the game or phase it out with sci-fi technology.

[The E]

EDIT: Just a thought, if you're going for semi-believable technologies, how about applying the principles of particle acceleration to space ships? The LHC can make particles go as fast as 0.999999991 c (3m/s slower than light) using magnets. I mean sure the pure Gs would cause peoples faces to melt off but that's just details. Maybe to avoid face meltage, just apply it to cargo transports which could be automated. With current technology it takes about 7 months to reach Mars so you could either incorporate the time lag into the game or phase it out with sci-fi technology.

Small issue: How would you decelerate?

[Phantom Hoover]

if ksp has taught me anything it's that aerobraking is limitless free delta-v with no downsides

[Dragon]

KSP, as usual, taught you wrong. Everything that has to do with atmosphere is downright ridiculous without mods. Try that in 1.0 (or FAR+DRE, if you're not scared of mods) and you'll either not be able to stop, smack into a mountain or burn up. Aerobraking is great, and you can do a lot with it, but it has its limits and is not as efficient in a real atmosphere as in KSP's "souposphere". Not to mention you have to worry about the heat, which is substantial at high velocities. At high enough speed, you will zip through the atmosphere (assuming you don't burn up, which is more likely), no matter how low you go.

In general, an idea of using a mass driver for trans-Mars injection is incredibly far fetched. You're either firing the projectile too fast to be able to stop it, or are launching it into a Hohmann transfer orbit which has awful transit times and depends on launch windows. Also, if you can build a mass driver like this, you probably can manage a fusion drive as well, or at least a nuclear lightbulb. You're better off with a 0.1G torchship, which would reduce transit time to 12 days (your average transatlantic freighter takes longer to cross). It does take over a million m/s of delta-V, but if you've got a fusion drive, (with exhaust velocity up to 8 times that), it's a non-issue. Oh, and if you do it right, the thing will be able to fly in atmosphere by pumping air instead of hydrogen through the engines (essentially using air as free reaction mass. You'll even get a thrust boost, since air is heavier than hydrogen).

[rance]

Yeah I forgot all of my reentry physics, I was too swept up in the imagery of Fedex parcels rocketing down from a LOE like the Moon Shot in Borderlands 2. I know the accelerator idea is ridiculous, but I like it. Maybe it would work better as some kind of projectile weapon in space to fire at incoming ships.

If this colonization of Mars was planned well enough, it could be done with space travel technology today, it'd just take a long time and Mars wouldn't be able to rely on outside help that wasn't pre-planned 8 months in advance.

[headdie]

If this colonization of Mars was planned well enough, it could be done with space travel technology today, it'd just take a long time and Mars wouldn't be able to rely on outside help that wasn't pre-planned 8 months in advance.

Yer thats part of the challenge of the early game, your arrival population and resource will be all you have to work with until a self sufficient base is established for resources and no additional population for probably several years as like with probe missions today populated missions to Mars takes years to plan, assemble and launch with single use vehicles until space transit technology progresses to make return journeys viable.

Maybe do it Underground, then domes, then terraform, one for each stage, and the technology gets more magic as it goes along? I like the whole concept but stage 3 is missing the key component of adding to humanity, what can we do on mars that we can't on earth? All I can really think of is construction, living space and maybe mining. Potentially Mars could have a resource we don't have / have run out of on earth but that seems a little cliche, however cliche isn't always a bad thing if the gameplay is good enough. With the Dome idea, I think putting them in craters would 1) Be logical and 2) Look awesome.

http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cowboy-bebop.jpg

Been reading Kim Stanley Robinson, part of the inspiration for this, and crater domes was the line I was thinking, at least early on.

Btw I think Mars has tectonic plates, which could be another way of getting energy on Mars

I thought due to the cooling of Mars' core that Mars was currently Tectonically stable?

[IronBeer]

How serious are we talking? If the answer is "fairly", I would suggest looking at this:
The MIT-authored "Mars One Feasibility Study" (.pdf)

I don't feel like going into detail (that's what the study is for), but I can summarize what I feel are the most salient points, plus my own musings:

a) Resupply / rescue are Things That Will Not Happen. A "simple" Luna colony would need to hold out for several days in an emergency situation, assuming a relief mission were immediately ready to launch. A trip to Mars involves approximately a year of transit once the planetary transfer windows are aligned, which itself doesn't happen instantly. I personally mostly rule out re-supply missions because past a certain number of flights, the sheer mass of spare parts you're sending will equal the mass of new equipment.

ergo,

b) Pretty much everything needed for survival would eventually need to come from Mars' resources; alternatively- "they're on their own".
However on paper, Mars offers all the resources needed for human survival and permanent colonization.
*The atmosphere, though thin, contains carbon dioxide gas. This can be processed into liquid hydrocarbons (gasoline, polymer feedstocks) through the Fischer-Tropsch Process, which also produces water, albeit at significant energy cost. I'll get into technology barriers in a bit.
*Water ice exists as soil permafrost and as polar ice caps. Electrolysis results in oxygen and hydrogen, which has several potential uses (fuel cells, fusion reactor, chemical feedstock...).
*Martian soil is red due to presence of iron oxide. Barring the discovery of convenient ore seams, it should theoretically be possible to refine and smelt martian soil for iron metal.
*No idea if Martian soil is good for growing crops, but hydroponic techniques don't care.

taking this onboard,

c) We can conceptualize the technologies that would be required to exploit these resources and put down permanent roots.
*Electrical energy is an absolute must. Solar power is still an option, but will be less effective owing to Mars' greater distance from the sun. Preferable solutions include miniaturized fission reactors, fuel-cell systems, or possibly a fusion device. The more power we can bring, the better- we'll need a lot of juice to refine resources.
*Small-scale and rugged extraction and refining systems need to be developed. In "the biz", these devices are known as In-Situ Resource Utilization systems (ISRU). Some basic engineering has been done in this technology branch, but it is nowhere near ready for deployment.
*Finally, we need a solution to actually convert refined materials into usable widgets. 3d-printing systems show a lot of promise, but we still need highly rugged devices that are capable of working with multiple materials, including metal, AND subordinate gadgets that can still work with cruder engineering tolerances- we simply won't be doing precision work with low-quality metal half an AU from earth, and our whole engineering system needs to account for this.

I'm not addressing the economic costs because it would be self-evidently colossal.

In general, my take is that the initial establishment would be the hardest part. Once resource deposits are located, unexpected hazards surmounted, and LOCAL re-supply systems in place, it becomes a lot easier to move forward. Oh and things that would be easier? Well the reduced gravity would throw some curveballs into general engineering and construction, which could go either way, but human adaptation/development in permanent low-gravity is a complete X factor right now.

Frankly, we aren't ready to settle on Mars yet. I can envision what we'd need, and a day when we can go for it, but this is not the time. If I were the God-Director of the Human Space Program, I'd pull back on these dreams of Mars colonies. Sure, I could endorse a temporary visit, but we really should be shaking down our extraterrestrial colonization systems on the Moon.

Ed: huehue I didn't actually read the thread and some of these things have been addressed already. Ah well, I collected it all more effectively. 

[Klaustrophobia]

A guy I worked with is on that list of 100 candidates from Mars One.  Dude is absolutely crazy, and not just because he thinks going to mars in 10 years is a good idea.

[Mr. Vega]

A guy I worked with is on that list of 100 candidates from Mars One.  Dude is absolutely crazy, and not just because he thinks going to mars in 10 years is a good idea.

Or that you can accomplish an $80 billion job with a $6 billion budget and you can't even get remotely enough investors for that much.

Yet another example of why the private sector is useless when you're dealing with the absolute bleeding edge of tech development. The only entities with that much resources to throw at a project and that much willingness to wait for any economic gain are the US and Chinese governments.

[Dragon]

Make that just the Chinese. The US government seems to consider the space program to be rather low priority and will happily cut its funding if it needs it for something else. With the help from SpaceX, it might make it, but its the Chinese who are making real progress on that front.

[rance]

In this Game scenario however, maybe the need to colonize Mars outweighs the cost, otherwise this Planetery Colonization simulator will just be a bunch of people on Earth saying it's too expensive

[headdie]

Stuff

Thanks for that IronBeer, still a lot to think about there and when I get a moment that study looks like it might be very handy

[IronBeer]

Thanks for that IronBeer, still a lot to think about there and when I get a moment that study looks like it might be very handy

One important thing I somehow forgot: nitrogen is kind of scarce on Mars. The study makes reference to this, IIRC.

Careful environmental sealing and waste recycling would help slow the loss, but unless there's a local source, nitrogen is the one material that may actually need to be shipped in periodically.

Bluh just checked wikipedia, says that nitrogen is about a 2% component of the atmosphere. Martian air is already pretty thin, but nitrogen IS present, and it can be recovered assuming you bring the necessary equipment. Still, just wanted to touch on nitrogen here since I forgot it in my main post- the most immediate uses will be in fertilizer and flameproofing of pressurized envrionments.

[headdie]

hmmm, ok

[Phantom Hoover]

[longwinded missing of point]

you are aware, dragon, of this earth thing we call sarcasm? i understand that it burns up easily on transit to dragonworld