Author Topic: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?  (Read 3083 times)

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Offline Thisisaverylongusername

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Are we counting the Terran Mara in this discussion? Because it has the speed, maneuverability, and 2-2 gunpoints of the Apollo and Perseus, while having the armor, shielding, missile capacity, and primary recharge rate of the Ares. By far the best fighter in the GTVA.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
The Uly was my absolute favorite in FS1.  I used it to the exclusion of all else when available.  I absolutely loved the turning rate.  That was back before my accuracy went to **** for whatever reason.  I can't use it effectively anymore.  Maybe it's the joystick (currently on x45, where before I had a Cyborg 3D gold), or this fuzzy direct input thing I've heard mentioned a couple of times.  I just can't nail down what's different.  But I was so good with the uly because I could stay on target for a long time and just eat away the fighters with a Prom-Avenger combo.  Now I have to do deflection shots so I favor high-powered bursts, or missile spam. 

As to the original question, no, I never liked the Perseus either.  I'd even take the Myrmidon over it for its quad primary bank in the early game.  Once available, the Erinyes was my new Ulysses for the octo primaries.  At least until I got off of easy difficulty where the short energy reserves didn't matter.  Kayser/Maxim combo could eat fighters in microseconds.
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Offline AV8R

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
That was back before my accuracy went to **** for whatever reason.  I can't use it effectively anymore.  Maybe it's the joystick (currently on x45, where before I had a Cyborg 3D gold), or this fuzzy direct input thing I've heard mentioned a couple of times.  I just can't nail down what's different.

On a few other message boards they had an explanation for this phenomenon. From the days of Windows 9x to now, the way Direct Input reacts to joystick movement has changed. It used to use absolute values from the joystick which would translate to instant movement in whatever direction (X,Y) away from 0 (zero - center) the joystick was moved. Whether you moved the joystick 25, 50, or 100% away from center and no matter how quickly or slowly you moved it, your ship would change direction based on input instantaneously. Conversely, releasing the joystick to center would instantly snap the ship to straight. This method actually made the joystick act more like a mouse.

Later, in order to make turning seem more "realistic" (and unfortunately, it really is), there was a delay added (attitude acceleration/deceleration) since it was felt that, realistically, it took time for a aircraft/starship/whatever to respond to input from its pilot based on the craft's speed, weight, drag, etc. The net effect is: if you were to slam the joystick 100% in any direction using the old Direct Input method, the ship would almost instantly turn in that direction whereas now it has to accelerate to full turn speed (which can take up to 1 second to accomplish) before reaching its maximum. Bottom line: this makes the joystick less responsive and has the effect of causing overcompensation when targeting - often overshooting the target you're trying to get a fix on (the ship has to accelerate into the turn but then has to decelerate when the target nears the reticle - the deceleration causing the overshoot). Clear as mud?   :D

On topic - Perseus? Just ok. But I'm a heavy-assault kind of guy: Herc, Herc II and especially the Ares. :yes:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 08:13:31 pm by AV8R »

 

Offline wardog300k

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
On topic - Perseus? Just ok. But I'm a heavy-assault kind of guy: Herc, Herc II and especially the Ares. :yes:

I thought that I was alone...
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
"Am I the only one who"
You can always answer that question with 'no'
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
That was back before my accuracy went to **** for whatever reason.  I can't use it effectively anymore.  Maybe it's the joystick (currently on x45, where before I had a Cyborg 3D gold), or this fuzzy direct input thing I've heard mentioned a couple of times.  I just can't nail down what's different.

On a few other message boards they had an explanation of this phenomenon. From the days of Windows 9x to now, the way Direct Input reacts to joystick movement has changed. It use to deal with absolute values from the joystick which would translate to instant movement in whatever direction (X,Y) away from 0 (zero - center) the joystick was moved. Whether you moved the joystick 25, 50, or 100% away from center and no matter how quickly or slowly you moved it, your ship would change direction based on input instantaneously. Conversely, releasing the joystick to center would instantly snap the ship to straight. This method actually made the joystick act more like a mouse.

Later, in order to make turning seem more "realistic" (and unfortunately, this effect really is), there was a delay added (attitude acceleration/deceleration) since it was felt that, realistically, it took time for a aircraft/starship/whatever to respond to input from its pilot based on the craft's speed, weight, drag, etc. The net effect is: if you were to slam the joystick 100% in any direction using the old Direct Input method, the ship would almost instantly turn in that direction whereas now it has to accelerate to full turn speed (which can take up to 1 second to accomplish) before reaching its maximum. Bottom line: this makes the joystick less responsive and has the effect of causing overcompensation when targeting - often overshooting the target you're trying to get a fix (the ship has to accelerate into the turn but then has to decelerate the turn to get a fix - the deceleration causing the overshoot). Clear as mud?   :D

On topic - Perseus? Just ok. But I'm a heavy-assault kind of guy: Herc, Herc II and especially the Ares. :yes:

Huh.  That would fit.  But why the **** was that decision not left to the game designers? 
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Offline AV8R

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Microsoft called the shots (no pun intended) with the development of DirectX and the game developers just followed suit, I suppose. I mean, who doesn't want a more realistic gaming experience - even if it is to the detriment of playability?  lol  :rolleyes:

Although, it would be nice if game developers could override DirectX and implement their own input API, thus allowing the choice of either the more accurate absolute value input or the more realistic delayed acceleration/deceleration input for joysticks.

Maybe the SCP team can add a couple of more command line options....   ;)

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
On topic - Perseus? Just ok. But I'm a heavy-assault kind of guy: Herc, Herc II and especially the Ares. :yes:
I thought that I was alone...

You have heavily-armed and shielded brethren, my friend. :cool:

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Microsoft called the shots (no pun intended) with the development of DirectX and the game developers just followed suit, I suppose. I mean, who doesn't want a more realistic gaming experience - even if it is to the detriment of playability?  lol  :rolleyes:

Although, it would be nice if game developers could override DirectX and implement their own input API, thus allowing the choice of either the more accurate absolute value input or the more realistic delayed acceleration/deceleration input for joysticks.

Maybe the SCP team can add a couple of more command line options....   ;)
We're just switching to SDL instead.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
On a few other message boards they had an explanation for this phenomenon. From the days of Windows 9x to now, the way Direct Input reacts to joystick movement has changed. It used to use absolute values from the joystick which would translate to instant movement in whatever direction (X,Y) away from 0 (zero - center) the joystick was moved. Whether you moved the joystick 25, 50, or 100% away from center and no matter how quickly or slowly you moved it, your ship would change direction based on input instantaneously. Conversely, releasing the joystick to center would instantly snap the ship to straight. This method actually made the joystick act more like a mouse.

Later, in order to make turning seem more "realistic" (and unfortunately, it really is), there was a delay added (attitude acceleration/deceleration) since it was felt that, realistically, it took time for a aircraft/starship/whatever to respond to input from its pilot based on the craft's speed, weight, drag, etc. The net effect is: if you were to slam the joystick 100% in any direction using the old Direct Input method, the ship would almost instantly turn in that direction whereas now it has to accelerate to full turn speed (which can take up to 1 second to accomplish) before reaching its maximum. Bottom line: this makes the joystick less responsive and has the effect of causing overcompensation when targeting - often overshooting the target you're trying to get a fix on (the ship has to accelerate into the turn but then has to decelerate when the target nears the reticle - the deceleration causing the overshoot). Clear as mud?   :D


Good initiative, bad judgment / implementation.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
We're just switching to SDL instead.

And what, pray tell, is SDL and how does it affect input?

 
Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
In the scope of this conversation it's a replacement for DirectInput's joystick interface.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Any word on how far away that is?  Because if it makes it like the olden days again, that would be the single biggest thing that would make me return to active FS2 playing.  It's been years, even though everything is installed and my joysticks are right next to me as I type this.
I like to stare at the sun.

 
Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Does everyone else use joysticks? Because I literally use the arrow keys.

Works pretty well too.

 
Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Does everyone else use joysticks? Because I literally use the arrow keys.

Works pretty well too.

I use WSADQE for turning to face the general direction of that enemy directly behind me, and then the mouse for precise aiming. It works nice.
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Offline Vrets

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
I use WSADQE for turning to face the general direction of that enemy directly behind me, and then the mouse for precise aiming. It works nice.

Me too.

I miss the twist axis of my joystick, but you can't beat the precision aim of the mouse.

 
Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Regardless of what I'm using, I always have a basic setup (provided I can remap the controls, of course), which dates back to when I used to play this model plane simulator called Realflight as a kid. Right "stick" -- in this case, arrow keys -- controls pitch and roll. Left "stick" -- in this case, WASD -- controls throttle and yaw.

It always annoys me when standard control setups get it wrong, and put the rudder on the right stick and roll on the left. It's just not intuitive that way.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Am I the only one who's not a fan of the Perseus?
Any word on how far away that is?
It's in Antipodes and it may or may not be in the next major release of FSO (unless we make a release solely for the new renderer, which we might, in which case it'll be the major release after that).
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.