[Melon]

My prayers go to the relatives of those who were present when these attacks occurred. I'm unfortunate enough to understand what they're going through.

[rubixcube]

Also, I think that it's a good time for France (and Germany, and perhaps other EU countries as well) to rethink their refugee policy. I certainly wouldn't like to see an "Islamic State of France and Germany" pop up some time after ISIS is cut down by Syrians and Russians...

That's unlikely given Muslims make up only 4 percent of the total population of Europe, and that number would go up to 5 or 6 percent at most. I also wager only about 1/5th -1/4th of Muslims actually believe in creating an Islamic caliphate.

[NGTM-1R]

Bastards. Well, I hope that Russians will soon finish off ISIS.

You think Russia is there to fight ISIS.

How do you get these things so wrong?

[Aesaar]

Bastards. Well, I hope that Russians will soon finish off ISIS.

You think Russia is there to fight ISIS.

How do you get these things so wrong?

They're there to fight everyone fighting the Syrian government.  That includes IS.

[NGTM-1R]

They're there to fight everyone fighting the Syrian government.  That includes IS.

This implies that the Syrian government and IS are fighting in more than a perfunctory way, when in fact the Syrian government has no real interest in doing so, and neither does Russia. They have to crush the other rebels themselves, and they devote their energies to this task. The Islamic State is a sideshow at best, because they know everyone else will fight IS for them.

[Aesaar]

Considering the non-IS rebels include the al-Nusra Front, which is an al-Qaeda affiliate, I don't really see a problem with that.  The "moderate" rebels are hardly all rainbows and sunshine.   If you're looking for a good guy in this cluster****, you won't find one.  Everyone, including Russia and NATO, is acting out of self-interest.

[666maslo666]

That's unlikely given Muslims make up only 4 percent of the total population of Europe, and that number would go up to 5 or 6 percent at most. I also wager only about 1/5th -1/4th of Muslims actually believe in creating an Islamic caliphate.

Muslims make up to 10% of France, tough. It is a country with the biggest muslim minority in Europe, hence the recent attacks. And muslims are not distributed equally, in some places they are even a local majority. And the number is rising both due to mass immigration and due to fertility rate differences. There will be no "Islamic caliphate of France" anytime soon, if ever, but there will probably be something resembling perhaps a low level civil war, with a rise in the rate of ethnic violence and regularly occurring terrorist attacks. With increasing proportion of muslims attacks like these will become more frequent, since some fraction of muslims will inevitably be extremists, and some small but non-zero fraction of these extremists will be "brave" enough to take up terrorism. And intelligence agencies do not have 100% success rate in catching them before the act.

I am afraid it is too late to truly solve the situation now, the cat is out of the bag (at least in western Europe). Immigration cant be reversed - I dont think deportations are realistic or politically feasible. But it is never too late to enact much more strict immigration policies in order to put limits on just how bad it will get in the future. I am just hoping the EU wont force us to suffer the same fate with immigration quotas.. :/

[The E]

So what you're saying is that when someone makes attacks to protest the fact that we're trying to get people from different cultures to live together peacefully (assuming that's the reasoning behind this), the thing to do is to give in to their demands? Despite this whole thing working pretty well most of the time?

****ing pathetic, is what I think that is.

[666maslo666]

The reasoning behind the attacks is not that at all. The reasoning is most likely revenge on western attacks against ISIS and our interference in muslim lands. Basically, the terrorists want their dream of a caliphate to come true and are mad we stand in their way. It is not even an entirely unreasonable demand on their part, because sunni muslims with views similar to ISIS are often a majority in many parts of middle east. So by attacking ISIS we are attacking their right to self-determination. This is OK, because their self-determination goes against basic human rights and poses big a security risk for the region, thus they dont deserve it. But surely you can see how it could inflame "righteous anger" from their POV.

[666maslo666]

And yes, if the cost of trying to get people from different cultures to live together peacefully in case of some specific cultures is too high compared to benefits, perhaps its reasonable to abandon the project and prefer segregation to multiculturalism (Israel vs. Palestinians is another example). Wise people know when to give up. Now whether you think pros outweight the cons or not in this case is a subjective opinion, but IMHO they do not, and I dont think thats cowardice to reach the same conclusion.

[Grizzly]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with multicultarism. These aren't riots escalating along ethnic lines.

[Col.Hornet]

They're there to fight everyone fighting the Syrian government.  That includes IS.

This implies that the Syrian government and IS are fighting in more than a perfunctory way, when in fact the Syrian government has no real interest in doing so, and neither does Russia. They have to crush the other rebels themselves, and they devote their energies to this task. The Islamic State is a sideshow at best, because they know everyone else will fight IS for them.

So, a savage, barbarian terrorist organization ripps off like 2/3 of your country's and your neighbour's soil, slaughtering religious minorities, destroying your cultural legacy <ancient ruins in Palmyra> and you are telling that this is a sidesdhow?
....


You know why it may seem that SAA is not fighting IS with full strength?

1. That army has been fighting for 4 damn years, they've been bled out pretty bad.
2. They have problems with co called "rebels" <same terrorist sh** no matter the name.Except the Kurds> and the battleground with  these organizations is very close to densely populated areas like Lattakia province, Damascus countryside, Daraya, Daraa. They will have to wipe them all out from these places before they can make an all out offensive against IS. Of course Russians helped a lot because they cover most of Lattakia <populated mostly by Alavis and Christians> with their jets, artillery and armour so they now can deploy their forces more aggressively. And they are eliminating smaller threats first as the "rebels" are less numerous, dispersed, less coordinated and armed.


As for the immigration. What happened in western Europe in the past years is irreversible. These people are already among you, your society, most of them assimilated. There is no doubt that "refugees" were infiltrated by IS and they will bite.
Don't get me wrong guys but I'm now praying that our fresh elected government will not allow to take any one of these people. I would like to help Syrians and Iraqis but not in that way. I don't want to put my own nation in potential danger <I don't care that the chance is very small as they are trying to force us to take a small number of people and Poland is not a primary target. The danger still exist and it's literal>.

 

[666maslo666]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with multicultarism. These aren't riots escalating along ethnic lines.

Oh it does, these are conflicts escalating along religious lines, which are at the core of current cultural diversity in French society. These attacks would not happen if France had 1% of muslim population instead of 10%, like it had few decades ago. Giving up this homogenity in favor of multiculturalism was a big mistake and probably the main reason why these attacks are going to repeat with horrifying regularity. People cannot live together peacefully if the cultural and socioeconomic rifts between them are too big. 21st century France will be no exception to this pattern, no matter how hard the multiculturalists will try to bend the reality to their will.

[Col.Hornet]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with multicultarism. These aren't riots escalating along ethnic lines.

Oh it does, these are conflicts escalating along religious lines, which are at the core of current cultural diversity in French society. These attacks would not happen if France had 1% of muslim population instead of 10%, like it had few decades ago. Giving up this homogenity in favor of multiculturalism was a big mistake and probably the main reason why these attacks are going to repeat with horrifying regularity. People cannot live together peacefully if the cultural and socioeconomic rifts between them are too big. 21st century France will be no exception to this pattern, no matter how hard the multiculturalists will try to bend the reality to their will.

That is the reason I do not want my country to participate in that cultural crucible. And saying that "It has nothing to do with religion!" is a least naive...

[Fineus]

Listen up. I only want to say this once.

Please keep this thread civil. It's a very difficult time for a lot of people and I would like this community to express sympathy, not argue the politics of who to kill or the situation of refugees etc.

If you want to debate that sort of thing then please start a new thread for it or use one of the existing ones.

We don't need many threads on the same topic (last nights attack in Paris) - but let's make sure this one is a show of solidarity and not a hate-fest.

Thank you.

Edit: Add religious debate / cultural debate etc. to the list of things this thread should not be about.

Also, stop reporting each other. Consider everything before my post to be subject to amnesty and nobody is getting singled out for any of it.

From here on, if y'all keep squabbling about the above topics there will be trouble. I'm not in the mood today and the combined news of a death amongst my Uni friends (non-Paris related) and the recent happenings in Paris are not improving things.

Therefore, again, please keep this civil and an expression of sympathy rather than hate.

[Bobboau]

several have said that immigration is irreversible, the disturbing truth is that's not quite true.

[NGTM-1R]

Considering the non-IS rebels include the al-Nusra Front, which is an al-Qaeda affiliate, I don't really see a problem with that.

I never made a claim of good guys and bad guys. Indeed, you seemed to be objecting to a point you have now conceded, that Dragon's characterization was wrong.

...okay, so, what was the point in the first place?

You know why it may seem that SAA is not fighting IS with full strength?

There is no seem. It is deliberate strategy. Indeed, it's actually quite skillful of Assad. He doesn't care for cultural treasures or history; he cares about power, and survival.

Because what you're forgetting about an army at war for four years, is that as long as it doesn't collapse, it actually gets better. It learns, not even at an individual level, but at an organizational one. (Look to the Kurds, who can draw upon their long history of insurgency in Turkey, and see how those lessons have made them stronger; look to IS itself, who absorbed the true ideologues from the Iraqi insurgencies, and used their knowledge to become the threat it is.) The Syrian Army has suffered much, but it has certainly not been broken. The fact Assad is alive proves that.

And against the other rebels, its operations have been more successful than they were at the start. Indeed, it's actually taken back substantial territory in some cases. But not against the Islamic State.

several have said that immigration is irreversible, the disturbing truth is that's not quite true.

If you have a practical means for any nation on Earth to deport millions of people who don't want to leave...I dunno, I'd think Donald Trump would have hired you by now or something. He's made promises.

Or you're straight going to suggest the Godwin Solution. I suppose that is an answer, but it's not an answer that'll work for any European state currently experiencing major immigration from the Middle East.

[666maslo666]

Deporting millions who dont want to leave is certainly possible. Do not try to tell me that a modern developed nation is incapable of enforcing its immigration policy as it sees fit. The only thing lacking is political will to do so (for better or worse, this is quite a radical solution after all). We are not talking about gassing those people, only deporting them, so you do not need to be like Hitler to achieve it, either, This kind of defeatism is just wrong. Also, US immigration policy is a huge joke, the fact that US fails to deport those millions of illegals is thus not indicative of whether it can be done or not at all. If Trump had sufficient political support behind him, he could surely do it.

[Grizzly]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with multicultarism. These aren't riots escalating along ethnic lines.

Oh it does, these are conflicts escalating along religious lines, which are at the core of current cultural diversity in French society. These attacks would not happen if France had 1% of muslim population instead of 10%, like it had few decades ago. Giving up this homogenity in favor of multiculturalism was a big mistake and probably the main reason why these attacks are going to repeat with horrifying regularity. People cannot live together peacefully if the cultural and socioeconomic rifts between them are too big. 21st century France will be no exception to this pattern, no matter how hard the multiculturalists will try to bend the reality to their will.

That is the reason I do not want my country to participate in that cultural crucible. And saying that "It has nothing to do with religion!" is a least naive...

I don't intend to say that it has nothing to do with religion, but saying it has simply everything to do with multicultilatirism or simply <insert aspect of society I have an axe to grind against> is equally naïve. There are plenty of multicultural nations where these kind of attacks do not happen. There are plenty of countries that are relatively unilatural in their culture where these kind of attacks do happen.  Advocating to treat people with hostility based on where they come from based on this attack is at best vulture politics.

Especially in these days where most of the people moving in from other places are the people trying to escape these kind of situations. In France this is a tragedy. In Syria this would be another statistic.

[666maslo666]

Especially in these days where most of the people moving in from other places are the people trying to escape these kind of situations.

Not really, I think many of the migrants are ether extremists escaping from an even bigger extremist, or are simply escaping poverty and war, not necessarily the ideas behind extreme islam. They will bring these kind of situations wth them.