[Akalabeth Angel]

Hyperspace is a form of FTL travel that requires specialized equipment. That's the only firm rule we know of. We do not know the absolute speed attainable (Han says ".5 past light speed" in the OT, but it's not like that allows us to extrapolate anything), we do not know what conditions must be met for a hyperspace jump to be possible (but it's reasonable to assume that large objects like Planets inhibit travel), however we do know that a ship can jump from within another ship (although we do not know what happens to the ship that is jumped out of). We also have little information about the conditions for successful hyperspace exit; the only firm rule seems to be that exiting within another solid body is probably not a good idea.

So if we know that a ship can jump to light speed from within another ship (from TFA), why didn't they go to hyperspace from within the death star which has an open hangar in Episode IV?

And where do you get the idea that exiting light speed within a solid body is not a good idea? Where is this shown in the movie? You said Han is not a reliable source of information so what onscreen evidence do you have to support that claim?

There's also the handwavium part where the Falcon can go from Hoth to Bespin without a hyperdrive. Have fun explaining that.

Ep7 has issues, but OT has its fair share of inconsistencies as well.

The Falcon doesn't go from Hoth to Bespin.
It goes from Hoth to Anoat to Bespin.

The question is, how is that inconsistent?
Is there any other point in the original trilogy where the Falcon's "sublight" speed has been defined through events?

What event or line of dialogue, suggests that the Falcon cannot reach a nearby system through the use of its normal drive system?

[The E]

So if we know that a ship can jump to light speed from within another ship (from TFA), why didn't they go to hyperspace from within the death star which has an open hangar in Episode IV?

We do know that the Falcon had to break atmosphere before jumping away from Tatooine. We also know the same was true of the Naboo royal transport and the transports from ESB. That let's us extrapolate that being in a gravity well at the very least degrades, of not outright inhibits, hyperspace entry. We also know that the first Death Star is a massive machine, maybe massive enough to disrupt hyperspace entry.

And where do you get the idea that exiting light speed within a solid body is not a good idea? Where is this shown in the movie? You said Han is not a reliable source of information so what onscreen evidence do you have to support that claim?

I do believe Han when he says that not running into a planet or sun is a bad idea. Also, he seems awfully keen on avoiding colliding with the planet in TFA....

[Akalabeth Angel]

So if we know that a ship can jump to light speed from within another ship (from TFA), why didn't they go to hyperspace from within the death star which has an open hangar in Episode IV?

We do know that the Falcon had to break atmosphere before jumping away from Tatooine. We also know the same was true of the Naboo royal transport and the transports from ESB. That let's us extrapolate that being in a gravity well at the very least degrades, of not outright inhibits, hyperspace entry. We also know that the first Death Star is a massive machine, maybe massive enough to disrupt hyperspace entry.

Who says the Falcon had to break atmosphere before jumping? Maybe they just chose to. After all, no one told you that they need to leave the atmosphere.

I mean in Return of the Jedi, the rebel fighters flew to the front of the fleet before the entire fleet jumped to hyperspace in sequence from front to back, but clearly they chose to do that, because it would look cool right?
It's never explicitly stated that an X-Wing couldn't just jump to lightspeed through a Mon Calamari or vice versa, so just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean it's not possible.  You can argue that a Mon Cal would have too much gravity for a ship to jump out of but you cannot say that a Mon Cal could not jump through its own fighters because surely they don't have enough gravity to "disrupt hyperspace entry".

[The E]

Who says the Falcon had to break atmosphere before jumping? Maybe they just chose to. After all, no one told you that they need to leave the atmosphere.

If that wasn't the case, why did the Naboo royal transport and the transports at Hoth break atmosphere before jumping? In both cases, the planet they fled from was under blockade; If they could have jumped sooner, why didn't they? The assumption that a ship needs to be out of atmo, or at least a certain distance away from the planet before going to hyper is a natural one to make (Not to mention that, without such a limitation, blockades would not be practical at all). As far as we can tell from the films, this seems to be a very firm rule.

I mean in Return of the Jedi, the rebel fighters flew to the front of the fleet before the entire fleet jumped to hyperspace in sequence from front to back, but clearly they chose to do that, because it would look cool right?
It's never explicitly stated that an X-Wing couldn't just jump to lightspeed through a Mon Calamari or vice versa, so just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean it's not possible.  You can argue that a Mon Cal would have too much gravity for a ship to jump out of but you cannot say that a Mon Cal could not jump through its own fighters because surely they don't have enough gravity.

Maybe it makes tactical sense to have a bunch of fighters be the spearhead? Maybe jumping through something adds complications best avoided before launching a huge offensive? Not that this digression matters.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Who says the Falcon had to break atmosphere before jumping? Maybe they just chose to. After all, no one told you that they need to leave the atmosphere.

If that wasn't the case, why did the Naboo royal transport and the transports at Hoth break atmosphere before jumping? In both cases, the planet they fled from was under blockade; If they could have jumped sooner, why didn't they? The assumption that a ship needs to be out of atmo, or at least a certain distance away from the planet before going to hyper is a natural one to make (Not to mention that, without such a limitation, blockades would not be practical at all). As far as we can tell from the films, this seems to be a very firm rule.

Oh hey, speaking of blockades. Do you remember the opening crawl from the Phantom Menace?
"Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo"

Now, if as you suggest hyperspace entry is prohibited by large things like planets, but hyperspace exit is not then what use is the blockade?  In the Force Awaken Han exits hyperspace in atmosphere and at a very low altitude (not to mention passing through a shield). He's a smuggler, other people are smugglers or blockade runners and could do the same for a ton of Naboo cash.  The blockade around Naboo is further a fair distance out from the planet which would allow ships to jump in at a much safer distance than Han does in TFA.

So explain how a blockade prevents shipping to a planet if ships can jump out of hyperspace inside the blockade perimeter?

I mean in Return of the Jedi, the rebel fighters flew to the front of the fleet before the entire fleet jumped to hyperspace in sequence from front to back, but clearly they chose to do that, because it would look cool right?
It's never explicitly stated that an X-Wing couldn't just jump to lightspeed through a Mon Calamari or vice versa, so just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean it's not possible.  You can argue that a Mon Cal would have too much gravity for a ship to jump out of but you cannot say that a Mon Cal could not jump through its own fighters because surely they don't have enough gravity.

Maybe it makes tactical sense to have a bunch of fighters be the spearhead? Maybe jumping through something adds complications best avoided before launching a huge offensive? Not that this digression matters.

What complications? You mean like dying? Like having your ship horribly explode in a ball of fire because your mothership just ran your ass over?
You're not beyond making assumptions based on on-screen evidence, so why in this instance do you look for the complicated answer instead of the obvious one?

And similarly,  in Empire Strikes Back why did the Falcon exit the asteroid field before trying to go to lightspeed? While the rock he landed on is fairly big it's apparent from the movie that the asteroid field is large and he could've gotten distance from the one he landed on and then entered hyperspace before exiting the field entirely.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Wow, you seem to be making the assumption that just because the Falcon survived the jump under the shield, that this means that jumping into a planetary atmosphere is in any way safe or reliable. Han specifically refuses to tell Leia his idea because she won't like it; presumably, wouldn't like it to the point of refusing to allow him to go through with it at all. How do you know it isn't a split-second timing differential between ending up on the outside of the shield (and splattering all over it) or jumping too close to the planet's surface (and splattering all over it)?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Wow, you seem to be making the assumption that just because the Falcon survived the jump under the shield, that this means that jumping into a planetary atmosphere is in any way safe or reliable. Han specifically refuses to tell Leia his idea because she won't like it; presumably, wouldn't like it to the point of refusing to allow him to go through with it at all. How do you know it isn't a split-second timing differential between ending up on the outside of the shield (and splattering all over it) or jumping too close to the planet's surface (and splattering all over it)?

Why would you think running a blockade was safe? People don't run blockades because it's safe, they do it because it's either necessary or profitable.

Regardless the Trade Federation Ships aren't IN the atmosphere.  A ship need only be far enough from the Trade Federation ships to survive any reprisal before reaching the planet so the margin for error is consequently higher. This doesn't even account for the time needed for the Trade Federation to target an incoming vessel and destroy it.

So the question is how can a fleet of ships blockade a planet if a ship coming out of hyperspace is not required to travel past them at sublight speed?

[Tnadz]

I agree with everyone's points on Episode VII: A Newer Hope.  It was fun to see Harrison Solo come back to break his foot and fall to his death while Leia Fisher's face was stretched by Disney so much she couldn't open her mouth to talk.  And their kids Jacen and Jaina finally got some screen time with Beer Belly Luke!

My question is, where is the surveillance in the SW future?  Not one camera on the Death Star 3 to see a Wookie and two dudes with a sack break in and plant dozens of bombs?

And of the future things, we've come 60+ years from leather strap helmets to still open face helmets that do nothing for the pilots?

Come now, JJ.  Where's your smoke monster now?

[Aesaar]

while Leia Fisher's face was stretched by Disney so much she couldn't open her mouth to talk.

How dare Carrie Fisher get old?  Women aren't allowed to do that!

This is a really stupid complaint.

The fact that Luke could fly an X-Wing well enough to survive the Death Star assault despite never having touched one has always annoyed me.


Actually, no, wait, it didn't.

Right, because those were totally treated the same way.  It's not like it took Luke two movies to actually fight with a lightsaber (a fight he lost).  Nope, it's exactly the same.  Because Luke could fly an X-Wing, it's perfectly ok for someone to have instant Jedi skills the moment they pick up a lightsaber.  Doesn't cheapen Luke's arc at all.  Nope.

He wasted his time going to see Yoda, didn't he?  Becoming a Jedi is obviously really easy.

[The E]

Right, because those were totally treated the same way.  It's not like it took Luke two movies to actually fight with a lightsaber (a fight he lost).  Nope, it's exactly the same.  Because Luke could fly an X-Wing, it's perfectly ok for someone to have instant Jedi skills the moment they pick up a lightsaber.  Doesn't cheapen Luke's arc at all.  Nope.

He wasted his time going to see Yoda, didn't he?  Becoming a Jedi is obviously really easy.

You're comparing Luke's evolution as a swordfighter with Reys, but that's not the comparison I was making.

ANH tells us that Luke is a gifted pilot. It doesn't show us, mind you, it alludes to the fact by having Luke play with some toy and have Obi Wan point out that his father was remarkably gifted in that area. There are deleted scenes where Luke talks about wanting to join the imperial Academy to become a pilot, but that's all there is to it. If we apply the same standards you're using to judge Rey's ability to fight with swords, then the fact that Luke gets his own X-Wing and manages to survive in a rather hostile environment, then we see that he too seems to be "instantly skilled the moment he grabs the flight stick".

Now, TFA actually takes the time to show that Rey is capable in close quarters fighting. At the moment she grabs the saber, her abilities as a fighter are better established than Luke's piloting skill when the battle for Yavin starts, and yet you take offence at Rey? I find that a bit disingenuous, really.

[zookeeper]

Maybe everyone who wants to intentionally antagonize other posters and generally be an unpleasant person, could do it in the GenDisc thread and not here? Thanks, that'd be great.

ANH tells us that Luke is a gifted pilot. It doesn't show us, mind you, it alludes to the fact by having Luke play with some toy and have Obi Wan point out that his father was remarkably gifted in that area. There are deleted scenes where Luke talks about wanting to join the imperial Academy to become a pilot, but that's all there is to it.

Huh? Obi-wan says that he's heard Luke's a good pilot, Luke claims he is to Han in the cantina, and even Biggs assures that he can handle the X-wing because he's the best bush pilot (not in the original release). Whether it's realistic or not, it's repeated plenty of times.

[The E]

Right, I forgot about that. Still though, it is not until the Battle of Yavin that his abilities are actually shown to the viewer.

[Crashdown117]

Obi-wan says that he's heard Luke's a good pilot, Luke claims he is to Han in the cantina, and even Biggs assures that he can handle the X-wing because he's the best bush pilot (not in the original release). Whether it's realistic or not, it's repeated plenty of times.

And also: Luke never has to survive in a dogfight against any Imperial pilot in ANH. The only time he really could get in trouble is when he does the trench run. But then Han comes in with the Falcon to save his ass, so all he really has to do is fly his X-Wing to some specific location and then drop a bomb with the help of a targetting computer (yeah, he uses the Force here, but the targetting computer would've been a fine option for any non-sensitive pilot). So he doesn't need to be the galaxy's best pilot at all, some decent skill would be enough.

Still though, it is not until the Battle of Yavin that his abilities are actually shown to the viewer.

What sense would it make to show it earlier in ANH? (Just asking, not complaining) Why should he be flying anything earlier during ANH when there's no need to? Han would definitely not let him fly the Falcon just because he says he's good at it (remember Luke's just a boy from a Tatooine farm) and he's always present to fly his ship.

[The E]

Because "show don't tell" is a pretty good rule to follow in storytelling? It's generally easier to get the audience to go along with a given characterization if they can make that characterization themselves, instead of having the narrative tell us about it.

[zookeeper]

Because "show don't tell" is a pretty good rule to follow in storytelling? It's generally easier to get the audience to go along with a given characterization if they can make that characterization themselves, instead of having the narrative tell us about it.

Yes, but it matters what context you show or tell in. If you tell throughout the movie that Luke is a good pilot and only show it in the end, there's no problem because clearly the intent was all along that he's a good pilot. If you never say anything about him being a good pilot and then only show him suddenly being a good pilot in the end, that feels like a cop-out which came out of nowhere. You have to establish that he's a good pilot either by showing or telling early on, when he's still being actively characterized.

And I'd definitely argue that in the case of ANH, it's much better that it's only being told, not shown, because then the showing acts as a payoff for all that telling. If his speeder on Tatooine had been a fighter and he'd have been pulling off crazy stunts in the canyons, there wouldn't be any tension or doubt about whether he can handle the X-wing and live up to what's been told.

To compare with for example Rey's lightsaber skills, sure, she's good with her staff. Is that clear enough characterization to justify her being able to handle a lightsaber ok'ish later? I guess for someone it is, for someone else it isn't. But I'm pretty sure that if in addition to the pilot helmet, she had been shown playing with a broken lightsaber having a little imaginary lightsaber fight (which would have been silly for other reasons), then that would have been enough for almost anyone; it'd have established that she knows what kind of weapon it is and has thought about how they would be used and has had lots of mental practise. Or if she had been shown being generally good with improvised melee weapons or something once or twice.

P.S. The real problem in ANH is why Red leader would name the newbie to lead the last attack run and to "take" two veterans as his wingmen.

[Phantom Hoover]

That makes sense I guess, they were using targeting computers to make the shot so sending a rookie to take it and having veterans make sure he gets there is probably better than the other way round.

[Macielos]

So killing children is okay just so long as you kill a bad guy too?
I don't think people think that way.

I didn't say it was okay. I said Anakin had reasons to feel anger for Tuskens.

Imperial General laughing at Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" - Does this seem like something you would say if only 20 years previous the Jedi had a huge temple on Coruscant with hundreds of Jedi, each of which was fighting in the armies?

In the light of what we saw in Episode III, the world "ancient" could've been used sarcastically, to diminish significance of the Force. "Ancient" means here something we regard obsolete, worse, what we despise. Remember all these officers have been brainwashed by propaganda for the past twenty years. Not every quotation from OT must be took literally.

The empire made up by clones even though all the bridge officers are obviously regular dudes.

What's so strange in that? The Empire has no clones in OT. Stormtroopers are not clones. Among officers non-clones were present even during the Clone Wars - eg. Admiral Yularen and Captain Tarkin. Clones have been in Empire's regular service only for a short time after Jedi Purge as Kaminoans began to resist.

Leia saying "years ago you served my father in the clone wars". Did Obi Wan fight for the Alderan guy? Don't think so. He's just a senator. The Jedi were all military leaders in the PT.

I never thought "My father" refers to Bail Organa. I guess Organa told her that she is adopted, her father fought in the Clone Wars and he also mentioned Obi-wan - that's why Leia tries to call Obi-wan for help in the first place.

The idea of Jedi vs Sith when the OT only talks about Dark vs Light.

What's the problem with that? In OT Luke discovers only snippets of knowledge about the Force Jedi had in PT. It's simply forgotten as there are almost no old Jedi left.

What I love about PT is how they presented the Force and how it affects the entire galaxy.

Obi Wan saying Uncle Owen was against Anakin following OW on some "damned fool crusade". Did Owen even know Anakin? He met the guy for like 5 hours.  Obi Wan talks as though they grew up together. Aunt Beru talks the same way as well "too much of his father in him", this suggests knowing his spirit.  You don't know a guy from meeting him for a couple hours.

They saw him rushing to save his mother, then returning with her body, then crying on her tomb. Enough to know he is impulsive and emotional.

Furthermore does the conflict in the PT mirror a Crusade? Bearing in mind that the Crusades were expeditions to liberate the holy land. Not the defense of a political state.

How can I even comment that? It's just a term. It's origins can be totally different as we are in alternate universe.

Obi Wan saying that his father was already a great pilot when he met him. This is wrong for many reasons. First of which, Obi Wan didn't meet Anakin. Anakin wasn't a pilot, he was a pod racer.  Obi Wan doesn't mention he was a 10 year old boy, something that he realistically should have said.  This dialogue is more applicable to Finn meeting Po for example.  Is Anakin even a great pilot during the show? Honesty Han Solo arguably does more interesting things than Anakin ever does.

He had a natural talent for flying and technology. He quickly adapted to new situations involving driving air or space ships. Apart from the pod race, he was thrown into the middle of space battle in a fighter he never flied and we has able to survive, regain control, penetrate the station's defences and destroy it from inside. In EII he manoeuvrers among the numerous shuttles on Coruscant, in EIII takes part in a huge space battle. Is that not enough?

Obi Wan saying he took it upon himself to train Anakin. Horse**** he did, he trained him because Qui Gon asked him to. Would a guy not mention this?

Maybe, maybe not. "What-if" is not a proper argument in a discussion.

Well, following your argumentation, R2-D2 could have told Luke that Vader is his father .

Obi Wan saying that Anakin helped hunt down the Jedi. No he didn't. The Jedi all got killed by stormtroopers. Assaulting a temple is not "hunting down".

What? Did you even watched/read/played anything between EIII and EIV? Anakin was leading the clone assault on the temple, himself killed a bunch of younglings and probably some Jedi too. Then, as Vader, he was hunting Jedi for many years. It'd be strange if PT showed events that took place after PT . But the other SW-universe productions mention that. Ever played The Force Unleashed?

Palpatine calling the Lightsaber a Jedi weapon.  Yet he uses one in the PT.  Is he a Jedi? No. So why is he using a Jedi weapon?

Agreed, this one could be a mismatch. I assume he called THIS (green) lightsaber a Jedi weapon. Sith all have red.

EDIT: Vader also uses a lightsaber in OT. If it's a mismatch, it is a OT mismatch in the first place.

Even the idea of Obi Wan calling Luke's father a "good friend" is a stretch. They goof around in the movies but they don't act much like friends and they complain about each other constantly.

This one defends itself. Fact they're arguing doesn't imply after all these years Obi-wan cannot mention good moments with Anakin. Besides, in EIII Anakin is a knight, not a padawan, he's almost equal to Obi-wan, he only has not master title. At some point Obi-wan tells Anakin "You became a greater Jedi than I ever thought".

Now most fans would say "If you think about it from this obscure angle, it kinda sorta makes sense".  No it doesn't.

I can only laugh at how OT fans will find and complain on even the most insignificant mismatches in PT, but are absolutely tolerant on OT.

[Crashdown117]

And I'd definitely argue that in the case of ANH, it's much better that it's only being told, not shown, because then the showing acts as a payoff for all that telling. If his speeder on Tatooine had been a fighter and he'd have been pulling off crazy stunts in the canyons, there wouldn't be any tension or doubt about whether he can handle the X-wing and live up to what's been told.

To compare with for example Rey's lightsaber skills, sure, she's good with her staff. Is that clear enough characterization to justify her being able to handle a lightsaber ok'ish later? I guess for someone it is, for someone else it isn't. But I'm pretty sure that if in addition to the pilot helmet, she had been shown playing with a broken lightsaber having a little imaginary lightsaber fight (which would have been silly for other reasons), then that would have been enough for almost anyone; it'd have established that she knows what kind of weapon it is and has thought about how they would be used and has had lots of mental practise. Or if she had been shown being generally good with improvised melee weapons or something once or twice.

P.S. The real problem in ANH is why Red leader would name the newbie to lead the last attack run and to "take" two veterans as his wingmen.

That's pretty much my point. As for "show don't tell": I agree, that it's generally easier for both the storyteller to present and the audience to understand. But what I was about was that if there's no need for the scene that does the showing in the context of the story, then it's better to leave that scene out and do some telling instead. Unless it's just another stupid action movie, of course.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Furthermore does the conflict in the PT mirror a Crusade? Bearing in mind that the Crusades were expeditions to liberate the holy land. Not the defense of a political state.

How can I even comment that? It's just a term. It's origins can be totally different as we are in alternate universe.

#1 We're not in an alternate universe. We're in a Galaxy Far Far Away
#2 If this is your mentality in this discussion then there's really no point in having it. If you're going to wantonly disregard the meaning of a word then you're going to wantonly disregard anything you see as not concrete in order to maintain your own opinion.

For example:

I never thought "My father" refers to Bail Organa. I guess Organa told her that she is adopted, her father fought in the Clone Wars and he also mentioned Obi-wan - that's why Leia tries to call Obi-wan for help in the first place.

Critical analysis require a little more reliance on reality, and a lot less reliance on your own imagination.

[CountBuggula]

While I understand that Star Wars is an emotional topic for many of us, and I'm all for having spirited debates about it, I need everyone to do a better job of being civil.  I'd really rather not have to delete anybody's posts here, but if I see any further personal attacks (or anything even resembling it) I will do so.  Consider yourselves warned.

Now...carry on, and may the force be with you.