[GhylTarvoke]

Conspiracy theories sure are fun, aren't they.

The inaccurate and remarkably delayed media coverage speaks for itself. I wouldn't call it a cabal, though; just run-of-the-mill cultural sensitivity.

Ironically, the handling of the event is now getting a lot of attention. ZDF made a public apology, which is a good start.

[Phantom Hoover]

Conspiracy theories sure are fun, aren't they.

It's not a conspiracy theory, the authorities were clearly very reluctant to say that these attacks were the work of refugees out to harass women. This is an actual, legitimate instance of political correctness gone mad.

[NGTM-1R]

It's not a conspiracy theory, the authorities were clearly very reluctant to say that these attacks were the work of refugees out to harass women. This is an actual, legitimate instance of political correctness gone mad.

Or a simple acknowledgement the retaliation is going to be a bigger public order problem than the original attacks.

[PeterX]

ZDF is a **** storm TV - station,the ARD and third channels of state owned TV - stations. Simply they are lairs without any end. The political elite says "save money at all coasts" on the back of the police officers.  And these stations order us peoples to be political correct and want to take our freedom at Merkel´s will. She is a marionette of US?? not really,really of the clan of the Rotschilds.
 

[Dragon]

Or a simple acknowledgement the retaliation is going to be a bigger public order problem than the original attacks.

That still doesn't change the fact that the public has been outright lied to. I don't think this is how it's supposed to work in a democracy. This is wrong on principle, no matter what they say to justify it. I think it'll actually make the situation worse for the immigrants. Not only will the retaliation still happen (if the guilty have already been kicked out, it'll simply target innocent people) and it damaged the credibility of any source claiming the immigrants are not a threat. As far as I'm concerned, this incident and the subsequent handling of it is going to be the new centerpiece of anti-refugee rhetoric. And I have to say, it's a pretty darn good centerpiece.

The next elections in Germany are next year and I'm not looking forward to them. I'm not too fond of immigrants, but with how this is going, the prospect of extremists ending up in power seems very likely.

[Grizzly]

Conspiracy theories sure are fun, aren't they.

It's not a conspiracy theory, the authorities were clearly very reluctant to say that these attacks were the work of refugees out to harass women. This is an actual, legitimate instance of political correctness gone mad.

Sure, the authorities may have been reluctant, but I was referring to the media across europe when I uttered the line that started this tangent. There have been several references to the media (eg the newspapers and stuff like that) censoring the true impact of the refugees which does not match my perceptions of reading the newspapers (yes, all of them, I have a side job delivering them atm), right now.

[Phantom Hoover]

Conspiracy theories sure are fun, aren't they.

It's not a conspiracy theory, the authorities were clearly very reluctant to say that these attacks were the work of refugees out to harass women. This is an actual, legitimate instance of political correctness gone mad.

Sure, the authorities may have been reluctant, but I was referring to the media across europe when I uttered the line that started this tangent. There have been several references to the media (eg the newspapers and stuff like that) censoring the true impact of the refugees which does not match my perceptions of reading the newspapers (yes, all of them, I have a side job delivering them atm), right now.

Yeah sure, there are massive overreactions here, much of that cultivated by right-wing populists. But the left (and/or 'the establishment'; the mainstream right are on the same side of the fence here) has completely ****ed up in its reaction to this, as demonstrated by you and The E and NGTM. There's a concerted effort to deny that any social problems emerge from immigration and multiculturalism, that anyone who feels uncomfortable with having enclaves in their society that provide fertile recruiting grounds for militant fundamentalists and often concerted opposition to hard-fought social progress is just a crazy xenophobic loon.

These are problems. People have a right to be frightened and worried about them. You must believe, as I do, that inclusivity and tolerance is the way to solve them; then actually talk about why that is rather than ramping up the public shame on anyone who questions that. Otherwise you let that fear and discomfort fester and it eventually breaks out as Trump, Le Pen and Farage.

MP-Ryan has made excellent posts in this thread. Battuta made excellent posts in the wake of the Paris attacks. Please look at those posts and emulate them, because right now you're just making the conversation even more toxic.

[Grizzly]

These are problems. People have a right to be frightened and worried about them. You must believe, as I do, that inclusivity and tolerance is the way to solve them; then actually talk about why that is rather than ramping up the public shame on anyone who questions that. Otherwise you let that fear and discomfort fester and it eventually breaks out as Trump, Le Pen and Farage.

I genuinely do not understand why people are saying that the media is downplaying the effects that the refugees are having, whilst the media in the papers that I deliver has the syrian refugees on the frontpage atleast once a week (and with that whole camerawoman kicking refugees story I am surprised I am not seeing accusations flying the other way). Granted, it was a rhetorical question, but it seems par of the course in GenDisc's generally unmoderated attitude and it's not at all different from the way you phrase your posts.

I do not believe there are no problems with the integration of immigrants, but I also believe that in this case (and a few previous cases discussed in GD) these are either not relevant or secondary to the trends that cause the anecdotes that we discuss here. When I look at immigration issues one should (I believe) look at things that fester more over time, like why France and Belgium are mentioned a lot in terrorism news lately and the Netherlands and Germany are mentioned a lot thanks to rioting. Compare differences and move from there. This seems beyond the scope of this thread, however, as it's entirely anecdotal.

[Phantom Hoover]

I agree with you that a large segment of the media is onboard with and encouraging the current trend of populist xenophobia. Claims that there's any kind of suppression there are overreaching a long way. But the German government and authorities definitely tried to downplay the nature of these attacks in the interest of political convenience; in that sense, there was an attempted cover up, and you and The E were completely out of order in jumping on Ghyl for suggesting that.

I do not believe there are no problems with the integration of immigrants, but I also believe that in this case (and a few previous cases discussed in GD) these are either not relevant or secondary to the trends that cause the anecdotes that we discuss here. When I look at immigration issues one should (I believe) look at things that fester more over time, like why France and Belgium are mentioned a lot in terrorism news lately and the Netherlands and Germany are mentioned a lot thanks to rioting. Compare differences and move from there. This seems beyond the scope of this thread, however, as it's entirely anecdotal.

I don't see how you can claim with a straight face that there are no problems with the integration of immigrants in Europe after the Paris attacks, after the Charlie Hebdo attack, after the levels of recruitment to Daesh from European Muslims. Frankly it seems like you're unwilling to recognise social problems unless they emanate from the right wing.

[Bobboau]

anyone else mention this is also happening?

[Grizzly]

I don't see how you can claim with a straight face that there are no problems with the integration of immigrants in Europe

I do not believe there are no problems with the integration of immigrants,

anyone else mention this is also happening?

I think that warrants a separate thread.

[The E]

I agree with you that a large segment of the media is onboard with and encouraging the current trend of populist xenophobia. Claims that there's any kind of suppression there are overreaching a long way. But the German government and authorities definitely tried to downplay the nature of these attacks in the interest of political convenience; in that sense, there was an attempted cover up, and you and The E were completely out of order in jumping on Ghyl for suggesting that.

A good point, and I apologize for my behaviour.

[Phantom Hoover]

I don't see how you can claim with a straight face that there are no problems with the integration of immigrants in Europe

I do not believe there are no problems with the integration of immigrants,

**** oops. I have a terrible time parsing that paragraph for some reason. If you're saying that the wider problem of integration is not best represented by this one incident then I agree, though it doesn't exactly bode well for the social development of Europe's existing Muslim enclaves.

[Bobboau]

open question on integration of immigrants, what represents integration? does integration mean should they adopt the local language, values, religion, eating habits, style of dress, music? what is and is not appropriate to expect someone to change about themselves when moving into a new part of the world? or should the host culture should adapt to service the immigrant?

(Note: I included things in that list I don't agree with.)

[The E]

In further on-topic news, Wolfgang Albers, President of Cologne's police force, has been forced to retire.

[Phantom Hoover]

Did he make any serious mistakes or is he a scapegoat?

[Bobboau]

my understanding is that there were some comments made early on by some police that "everything was calm and peaceful" or something like that. no idea who said that or if it's at all accurate, but maybe it was related to that?

[The E]

He certainly was guilty of miscommunicating the state of things to the public; He was responsible for the early claims that the new year began peacefully. It should be noted that this isn't the first time Albers has been criticized for his communications and leadership skills -- in the past 18 months, Police forces under his command were unable to prevent an anti-salafist demo from escalating into violence, and we recently had a bit of a scandal where a SEK (Spezialeinsatzkommando, think SWAT) under his command had to be disbanded for various acts of disciplinary violations.

So he could very well be a scapegoat, but personally I believe him to be at least partially responsible for this thing.

[Col.Hornet]

open question on integration of immigrants, what represents integration? does integration mean should they adopt the local language, values, religion, eating habits, style of dress, music? what is and is not appropriate to expect someone to change about themselves when moving into a new part of the world? or should the host culture should adapt to service the immigrant?

(Note: I included things in that list I don't agree with.)

If you come to somebody's house as a guest <immigrants are guests of some kind. Newcomers especially. This is a process that can take years> then you play by the rules dictated by your host. In exchange the host is obligated to treat the guest kindly. But if a country is giving people from another nation a helping hand, shelter, a chance start a new, normal life, then the refugee shall show 100% respect to the local culture and customs. No exception. Of course the same thing should be done by the locals but a situation where natives have to give up their casual code of behaviour is unacceptable.

 Let's say there is a school. There is a list of rules, including the dress code for example. It may say that wearing any kind of head coverage inside the building is forbidden. Both for boys and girls. No hats, caps etc. And let's say that a family from Afghanistan wants to sign up their kids there. If their daughters are wearing hijabs, they take them off once they cross the doors of school. Without complaining or any kind of crying about "lack of cultural understanding", "put-a-proper-verb-phobia", etc.

My home, my rules. If I'll ever plan to move to another country I will do my best to adapt to the new society. Respect the customs, culture, everything.

So if my country accepts any amount of refugees they will have to adapt to us. Not vice versa. No way around that. As I heared today, new Polish government says that we will give priority to the children and women. Then men. The last thing I want to watch in my neighbourhood are the groups of young, lone males waiting only to get welfare money and causing trouble.

[MP-Ryan]

Europe as a whole has not historically nor currently been good at integrating immigrant cultures

Compared to what actually? From my perspective, the Eastern European countries (Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Romania) have done quite well. Baltics recently, Hungary and Romania historically. Not to discount Spain and Italy either. Cannot comment about Greeks since I've not been there for some years to talk about this. Finland never had problems to integrate refugees coming from Eastern cultures.

This may be a mistake to say out loud, but it is Canada and USA that are cherry-picking the immigrants. Europe simply doesn't get that luxury. Germany did a bit better in the integration but their immigrants were mostly moderates to begin with - the current flux is not. France and Sweden have already failed. But I do believe that the reason why Sweden failed is different from France. I haven't been in UK for something like 6 years and can't say much about how it looks to me right now.

Compared to North America.  North America countries have been historically very successful at integrating immigrants (compared to Europe) precisely because they exercise some semblance of border control. For every success story in the Scandinavian or Baltic countries, there's a France, a Denmark, a Netherlands, an England, etc.  Europe would have this "luxury" if it got off its collective ass and created a harmonized, federated standard of continental border security.  This latest refugee crisis has been a great example of what NOT to do; instead of letting the Greeks shoulder the brunt of the waves, who in turn abdicated their responsibilities and instead resulted in migrants flooding on foot across Europe, the EU as an organization should have taken charge of intake, assessment, and relocation from the very beginning.  This means turning the EU into a near-federal government that actually matters, instead of whatever the hell it is now.

As someone who did work for a border security organization (and frankly, good riddance to that job), it BOGGLES MY MIND that Europe has open migration and virtually no border checks within it while having virtually no checks on migration and border security externally either.

EDIT:  As for what constitutes integration:  integration is the adoption by immigrants of legal and basic cultural norms of their new host country.  This does not mean abandoning their culture, language, and traditions, but it does mean adopting them into the framework of the legal and cultural norms of the host society.  In the context of the current discussion, this does mean abandoning the idea of women-and-children-as-property, physical punishment for minor crimes, and criminal punishment for offences against religious beliefs, etc.  It also means that the host country embraces new immigrants as new citizens with complete rights the same as their resident populations and respect for their cultures as well.